‍[00:02] Jennifer Wu: Hi everyone, thanks for listening to The Founder Spirit podcast. I'm your host, Jennifer Wu. In this podcast series, I interview exceptional individuals from all over the world with the Founder Spirit, ranging from social entrepreneurs, tech founders, to philanthropists, elite athletes and more. Together, we'll uncover not only how they managed to succeed in facing multiple challenges, but also who they are as people and their human story.

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“What if intelligence, real human intelligence, isn't something to automate away, but to elevate? What if data isn't just a resource for mine, but a reflection of who we are? And what if the machines we’ve built aren't the threat, but the mirror?”

“The simple fact is the machine now owns knowledge, which is pattern matching principles and the ability then to surface content. We now need to discover wisdom, which is the ability to unlock that content and that knowledge, to do things with it, to challenge it, to accept it, to know what to do with it. That is wisdom.”

“We're putting kids in the world that is training them on the world that was and expecting them to design the future that could be.”

Joining us today is the visionary Michael Clark, a strategist, author, and advisor who works with leaders, governments, and investors at times where decisions about AI, data, and emerging technologies carry long-term economic, societal, and policy consequences.

Author of Our Moment, a book that blends human wisdom with future vision, Michael’s work focuses on reshaping our relationship with technology, unlocking human potential, and designing systems that endure.

At the core of his mission is a simple belief: AI represents a catalyst moment, a rare opportunity to step back, rethink our systems, and build a future that genuinely serves people, without leaving anyone behind.

Just how did Michael, a university drop-out, become a pioneering systems thinker and designer in the Intelligent Age? Well, let’s talk to him & find out.

Hello Michael, welcome to The Founder Spirit podcast! Thank you for taking the time to join us today.

[02:54] Michael Clark: Thanks Jennifer. This is what I'm really looking forward to and also a little bit intrigued. So this is going to be fun.

[03:00] Jennifer: Thank you. Michael, growing up in Wales, in a small village of 300 people, what were some of the key influences on your life?

[03:08] Michael: It's an interesting question. So maybe one of the influences probably isn't someone who lived in Wales, but obviously was related to me is my grandfather. 

Actually, as a child I never really holidayed abroad. I didn't go abroad, I think, until I was 20, but we visited my mum's parents every summer. So every summer without fail. It was a time where there was no real multiple TV channels as we have today. 

I used to just go walking with him on the beach and he has such an eclectic story, like he collected leads from fishing rods and then he would melt them down in his garage and sell them to scrap yards. 

But he could knit, he could darn (to amend), he made me a bag to carry everything -  was one of the most innovative people I'd met at a young age. Almost like a mini hero to me. 

But in a weird way, he taught me the simple things of what it means to be a human being, but also the power of standing for your beliefs and who you are. But, you know, deep down, I just love being with him. So that was a really big influence.

And, of course, where you're from influences you as well, because I think we sometimes forget that I'm from a really small village where everybody knows everyone, and you sometimes wonder, will I ever get out of here? (chuckles)

But it influenced me in terms of my, I guess, keeping me grounded and a remembrance of where I'm from. So I think it's a mixture of the place I came from and then the people I was lucky to have in my life who influenced me beyond, I guess, material things. And I just really focused on memories and who I was.

[04:35] Jennifer: I love being in Wales, as you know, it's a place in the world where there are three sheep to one person, as I understand, Michael. And life is very simple.

[04:45] Michael: This is very true. You notice I left out in terms of the influences of my life. (chuckles)

[04:50] Jennifer: Well, you're definitely not a sheep. Let's put it this way, Michael. 

So I understand that you were bullied as a kid in school and was later told at age 15 that you would not amount to much in your life. It is always a hard thing to hear at a formative age, and especially from someone close to you. 

But I was wondering, in what way did that particular comment become a catalyst to help shape who you are today?

[05:15] Michael: It's probably the moment. And the person close to me you're referencing is actually my mum.

[05:21] Jennifer: Okay, I didn't want to say that.

[05:22] Michael: No, no, it's fine. She's cool with it. But it was when I gave her my report card. 

So everybody in the UK does a GCSE. I'm not quite sure what the equivalent is in the US, but it's basically the bridge before you go to university. And I basically didn't get any GCSEs whatsoever. 

And of course I don't hold that against her because that was just an emotional response because at the end of the day, I'm her son and she wants the best for me. 

But in a weird way unknown to her, it became that “I will show you” moment, which has kind of been in me ever since. And the irony is the driver was always just to make them proud of me and that was always it. 

But that I’ll show you just literally kickstarted something in me which has never really stopped. If anything, it's become a bit more grounded and less emotional. But it certainly triggered something, which even if you look back now, I can't explain or can even fathom how I got from there to here. 

But I'm very respectful of that journey because I know probably not many people would do it and I never really look back and look at it that way. But I think as you get older, you have more gratitude for it.  

And I'm forever grateful for her saying that to me because I think if she'd have just told me everything would be okay, I probably would have just gone into a comfort zone and who knows what my future would have been.

[06:35] Jennifer: As that being your moment, do you recall what was the first set of changes that you had made in your life?

[06:42] Michael: It's an interesting one. I got into sports and nutrition probably around then as well, so that gave me structure and discipline. So I think discipline was probably one of the first things that I implemented in my life. 

And structure, because then that just gave me the scaffolding. It almost became that I had less to think about. It was almost like the food became the black t-shirt in the wardrobe because it was the same everyday. I didn't have to think about it. 

And then the gym gave me discipline to go somewhere consistently and make myself accountable. So those two things, in a way, were the start of it and kind of made me who I was. 

But I think again, that scaffolding and structure started the wheels in motion of putting a framework around my life, in a way.

[07:27] Jennifer: But you're an extremely disciplined person, Michael. I understand you go to the gym every day. You're obsessed about nutrition. You go to dinner parties where you bring your own food (chuckles)

[07:39] Michael: Yeah… 

[07:39] Jennifer: That's right… in perfect proportion, in a tupperware - that's really interesting. 

Now I can understand fitness because my son around the same age also started going to the gym. And so what is it about the food? 

[07:53] Michael: Yeah, that story is quite funny, I know who told you that one. So there is a backstory, actually. And I don't know if I did this intentionally. 

So I suffered from epilepsy as a child up until about the age of 21-22. So I couldn't drive a car until I was probably about 25, so way before my friends and everybody else. 

And I discovered the gym around then. I read all these magazines, there was no Internet back then. And, and everybody said, look, if you eat like this, you look like this. 

So my attitude at the time was, right, I'm not going to look back when I'm 90 years old and regret that I didn't do what they said. So if I do what they said and it doesn't work, then I know it's all make believe. So I did it and it worked. 

But the interesting thing was when I went to the doctors, they said, I don't know what you've done, but you've cured your epilepsy yourself. So the way I'd chosen to live my life had actually cured a condition. And it's that knowledge of nutrition that also cured future diseases and illnesses later in life. 

So it's really interesting. So in the beginning, the diet was just a foundation of training, but as I've got older, it's actually ironically become the right foods that you need to live longer for longevity. And this is an important piece of the puzzle.

When I went to the gym for the first time, the guy behind the counter in the gym where you would sign in was a nutritionist. So I learned about food before I learned about lifting weights. 

And I very quickly realized the key to my long-term health was not about the lifting, it was what I did outside of the gym and how I recovered and how I looked after myself would then maximize what I gained in the gym. 

I learned obsessively about what food does to the body. So in a way, I wasn't following your typical bodybuilding route. I was almost like, oh, actually, what does this food do to me in this one? And is this better for me than this one? 

And weirdly, I was actually saving to move to America to study with the American College of Sports Medicine because I was really interested in becoming a nutritionist. 

But then the computer side of it took off and I never looked back. But I still retained the love of food. so it still came. Now I've got less crazy as back then with the tupperware parties. Now I do eat what I want on certain days, but I do it in a very controlled way.

[09:54] Jennifer: Michael, you had mentioned that you were rubbish in school, but you also told me that you learned to read at the age of two to three. You're obviously very bright, otherwise you wouldn't be here. 

But why did you decide to drop out of university?

[10:08] Michael: Well, this is an interesting one. So I kind of got there in a very strange way as well. 

So I left school with nothing, I stayed behind for like a year or so. I got what I needed to get to a step point before a university, which was a college. So actually this is my only qualification I gained, which was a very vocational qualification in computer science. 

I basically transitioned then to university. So I did the first year of university and the second year. Then I didn't get massive grades in the first year, but it got to the point where I was like, I can't learn this way. And it's almost the same as school. 

It was like, I can't learn this memorization, linear way of thinking and I just didn't fit. And university was the same. It was like, where's this going? And I'm struggling to understand. 

I only figured this out later in life, but I kind of learned by doing and I also learned by applying. So it's not a case of yeah, show me this and memorize and complete homework. It was really about, well, no, what happens if this connects with this? And then what happens? So it just didn't, didn’t fit. 

And of course, then when I left, then there was the eye opener that I had to actually get a job, which was interesting in itself. 

But look, university works for a lot of people and a lot of people are very successful out of the back of it. For me personally, the school system and the university system just didn't fit how my brain functioned and who I was and who I was probably going to become.

[11:32] Jennifer: Well, that's probably why you later developed the system thinking approach as well, is because you didn't fit into the system.

In our first conversation, you had said that you live your life by four rules. Rule number one, never do the same job twice. Number two, never work in the same industry twice. Always think three jobs ahead and never move for money. 

The first two and the fourth one I could totally relate to, but always think three jobs ahead. How do you concretely do that? Because most people can't even foresee their next move.

[12:09] Michael: So some of those rules have changed now because obviously they change as you get older, even the risks you take change. 

But in the early days, my initial goal was to try and build a toolbox of knowledge in my head. And my assumption was the money would come eventually based on what I know and what I can do and the specialist I become in my field or fields. So that (money) was never really the driver. 

Now the third job ahead was more so what do I see myself doing and what would I like to do. So by knowing the kind of things that I wanted to do, it stopped me from taking sideways steps for more money - that didn't interest me. So in a way, it proved dividends constantly. 

My first job ever was GBP 3.25 an hour, which today is ridiculous. Like, you can't even imagine how low that is in today's money. In, I think, 11 years, I went from that to maybe GBP 115,000 a year by not focusing on the money. 

So in between all of that, I had offers to go sideways. My dad told me, look, if they paid you more money, would you stay? In the beginning, my parents freaked out because I was changing jobs and they come from a generation that stays in a job forever and if it pays you more money, you stay. 

Whereas my argument was my learning curve has now ended, I now need to move on because my brain works in such a way that once I can do something, I never want to do it again because the learning for me is the first time that I do it. So now they're cool with it because they can see where it's got me. At the time, it was very difficult for them. 

The three jobs ahead worked for nearly, oh my God, like at least 10-15-20 years of my early career because it made sure that I was making the right strategic choices for my career. Even though I didn't know what that career was, I just knew the things I would love to do next. 

I basically had this inner scorecard as well. It's like what do I love to do that I want to keep on doing? What do I do but I don't really like and I'm never doing again? But it's good to know that. 

And then the third piece of the puzzle was, what don't I know but I need to know and then how do I get it?  So that was either a case of I will somehow get the organization to pay for me to do it, I will read stuff and try it for real, or I will train myself. 

And knowing those things I need to know unlocked the third job. If I can do 80% of that, I'll learn the rest on the job. And that's what it became. That's how those rules helped me in the beginning.

[14:30] Jennifer: Despite dropping out of university, you obviously had a very successful career in financial services for almost two decades as the Head of Innovation and Digital Transformation at JPMorgan and Mastercard. 

Here's a two-part question. One, what led you to pursue a career in financial services? And two, how do you convince these global institutions to hire someone who has dropped out of university? Because these roles are typically reserved for people with MBAs and years of experience.

[15:04] Michael: I'll tell you a story before JP actually.

My first job in financial services, actually was in (an) auto finance company. And I got the interview and I remember in the interview they said, oh, look, we're a bit concerned that you've never really worked in this industry before. 

And I turned to them, I said, oh, that's cool, just pay me what I earned in my last job then. And then when I proved myself, you can just pay me the salary of this one. And they went, it took them aback. I think they really took to me.

I've always believed this in the journey. You need to find people who see things in you that you don't see in yourself yet. And the people that took the chances on me were the people that saw something, a glimmer of something. Look, they'll open the door for you. The real work is whether you can stay in the room. And that's what I've always believed. 

So when I got to JP (Morgan), I'm not going to lie, I had an inner dialogue which said, because that was challenging for two different reasons. One is the size of the company and the brand. 

But I was also leaving Wales for the first time to work in the big city. I'd put it off for such a long time because I never thought I was mature enough to deal with it. I think I was about 33 when I did it. 

And I remember explicitly walking in JP (Morgan)'s offices on the first day, going to myself, they'll find me out by lunchtime. And I think by Wednesday, there was a moment where I realized I was probably the smartest person in the room. And I was thinking, what is going on here? 

I think by the time I got to Mastercard, honestly, I'd stacked up enough experience for it not to be questioned. Because I'd done some things in Nationwide Building Society, I was fortunate to work with a team that shaped the open banking strategy for one of the first banks that had to deal with it. 

And to then move into a product role, it was natural because I understood and I'd built enough experience. Basically, building a product was the last thing in the jigsaw that I hadn't done, so it made sense. 

So Mastercard wasn't an issue. JP was interesting, but what's even more interesting is I lasted almost five years, which is unheard of, and I learned so much in such a short space of time. 

Ironically, financial services was a key part of it. Financial services was interesting because I think I'm drawn to things that are complicated and scary. Like I joined JP Morgan (on) the day of the financial crisis.

[17:08] Jennifer: Yeah, 2008?

[17:09] Michael: Yeah. So I had to learn. One, I'm very glad I still had a job, but secondly, I got to learn what goes on in those environments under crisis and some of the decisions that are made. And it's been a link in my career. 

I've always gone to the cutting edge stuff or complexity because that interests me. Because it's like, okay, when someone says it can't be done, I'm immediately interested because my question is always not what I am seeing, it's what am I not seeing that others are missing and how can we connect it?

So, no, I think the common denominator in those roles is people see something in you that you don't see.

[17:45] Jennifer: Well, I love that. And I had certainly my own experience with imposter syndrome.

[17:51] Michael: It never leaves you. It never leaves you, by the way. It actually makes you who you are.

[17:55] Jennifer: It's the human condition. I've encountered that many times in my life, including launching this podcast and as recently as last year. And I literally wrote to my friend last year, I said, thank you for believing in me when I didn't believe in myself.

[18:09] Michael: Yeah, I think if you didn't have that imposter syndrome, you wouldn't have the drive that you do. And I think it's. If you speak to anybody that's an entrepreneur, they all believe they don't belong and that's why they keep pushing forward. 

And the biggest disease I probably have is I never look back and I never dwell on success. I'm too busy thinking, what am I going to do next? It's a curse and a gift in a way, because it keeps you moving forward.

[18:31] Jennifer: I think that's a gift. That's certainly a gift for an entrepreneur because I think a lot of people dwell and they ruminate on their past mistakes versus kind of moving on. And I'm certainly someone that used to fall victim to that, dwelling to that rumination very earlier on in my career as an entrepreneur. So good for you.

Michael, I was wondering, as a data strategist, what initially sparked your interest in personal data and where does your passion for data sovereignty come from? I understand you worked at numerous financial institutions, you're probably seeing a lot of data.

And I think, I'm not sure if it's Nationwide, but one of the financial institutions where you worked at, I think 80% of the state benefits are actually processed by them. So I was wondering just if you can tell us, why does data interest you so much?

[19:23] Michael: I think once you work inside these institutions, you realize that our entire economy runs on data, whether we like to admit it or not. 

And then I think (there are) two parts to this puzzle. The finance institutions teach you the flow of data and what it means and where it goes. When I worked for a service design agency, I realized there's a human side to data. 

And I think if you don't look at it that way, you'll forever just see it as a transaction, and you'll forever see it as just a naught and a one. Because quite frankly, that's what banking is, right? All you see is a digital screen, and everything just flows. 

But once you put yourself outside of that and you start looking at the world from the outside in, you realize that what we call data is actually a memory for someone, or it's an experience or it's a photograph. 

So in 2014, I wrote Jamie Dimon an email, and I said to him that… I still have it. I said to him, look, if we change the word trade for data, could we manage people's data for them and could we turn data into an asset?

Obviously, I didn't get a response because he's a busy man, but it kind of sparked the interest ironically in 2014 in me, which said, why is something so valuable not priced? Why is something that governments try to protect, people get taken to court over, and companies build moats around deemed not valuable? 

So that started an inner dialogue of curiosity in a way, which has also been a bit of a driver in me through my career, which is curiosity. And then of course, went through the social media boom, and then we started seeing the implications on people in terms of their privacy and things.

And then you start asking yourself the question, well, why is regulation failing constantly?  And why is the regulator playing catch up? And then you also then start asking the question, well, where's the human in this? Where's their rights? And what does this mean? 

So you start to piece that puzzle together and you start asking yourself, well, we can't keep attacking the problem with the same way that we always do. And again, I'm always a big believer in what are we not seeing versus what are we seeing. 

Probably unknown to me, that was the start of the book that I wrote because I was scratching an itch, which, ironically, was an itch I was allowed to scratch 15 years later.

And again, it's only when you look back and join the dots do you realize I started this journey in 2014. It was like a flicker and a flame, like one of my prologue titles. It was kind of something that had triggered in me, but it wasn't fully formed and it hadn't connected yet. 

So I kind of put it back to 2014 when I started to ask questions. But look, if you want to be really pure about this. I programmed my first computer when I was 10 years old. And I was mesmerized not by the fact that I couldn't code a damn thing, and a syntax error meant a spelling mistake, which I now know. 

I was mesmerized by what I saw on the screen, which was all the digits. So in a way, it's kind of followed me and almost become a bit more philosophical rather than technical. But I kind of understand all the connections a bit. 

So, yeah, you could argue it started with (age) 10, but the idea started to form probably in 2014.

[22:34] Jennifer: And what do you think, Michael, gives you the ability to question? 

[22:37] Michael: Look, I think it comes from, in a way, philosophical thinking as well. Look, we've lost something, I think, which is incredibly powerful. Greek philosophy was underpinned by asking better questions. And the real innovation was actually in the shades of gray. I think the thing that I am saddened by is we've become… 

I don't know where it came from, but I feel sometimes we've become very binary in our thinking. We almost have to be (either) the left or the right. We have to be yes or no or actually, can we be maybe, because in maybe in Greek philosophy is where the innovation happens, because actually, that's where you start to ask different questions. 

I think we haven't stopped asking questions. I think we've stopped asking better questions. I would argue we're drowning in knowledge, we're lacking wisdom, which to me says knowledge is patterns and relationships and principles, wisdom is execution. It's what do I do with that knowledge I now have, and how do I apply it. And this all stems from asking better questions. 

I wake up every day and assume I know nothing, every single day. So I leave the house, and my entire modus operandi is curiosity. So maybe the reason I question is because I observe - I kind of observe the world and my surroundings. 

And then I have my inner dialogue with all the tools and things I've built up through my career. And I say, well, what am I not seeing? 

Like, for example, I wrote a Substack on Nvidia's earnings, and everybody's running to what the market says. And I'm looking and they're going, okay, well, they're not telling me, what's not here.  

What's not here is people now have a different expectation of Nvidia because they always hit their targets. But then the next question is, ooh, are we now leaving the infrastructure cycle and we're moving to the next layer of intelligence?

So kind of asking better questions and then sitting back and observing. And I think one thing I've learned over time, which has become a learned skill, I've become better at listening than talking. And then if I don't think I've got anything to add, I won't say anything. But if I think there's something there that I can't explain, then I need to understand more. And that's kind of where the better questions come in.

[24:44] Jennifer: I think it's also because, Michael, we used to have downtime. 

And when I observe the people today, whenever they have a free moment, they're on their phone. I know you call it knowledge, but I call it information or misinformation. But I think we just don't give ourselves that time and space to observe like you do. 

But that’s maybe because we're from a different generation. But the kids growing up today, I'm very concerned. They're just constantly on their phones because the parents use it as a babysitting tool. 

So I know this is also something that you had thought about in terms of your work.

[25:21] Michael: Yep. So there's a few things to unpack there, right? 

So if you compare us, like we know what it means to be truly bored, truly bored, as in the worst day in the UK ever growing up was Sunday because everything was shut. I had three channels on TV and there was no Roadblocks, let's just put it that way. 

So that's the first thing. People today don't know what it means to be bored. The second thing is, and I don't think this has changed. It may have gotten worse, but I don't think it changed. I don't think people understand the concept of time. I think when we're taught time in school, it's based on a clock system and the clock is there to guide you. 

Warren Buffett said this many years ago, and it's so true. The two greatest gifts ever given in our lifetime was time and our mind. And most people haven't got a clue how to use either, because we're never taught to.

Because the underlying abilities we need as people to survive the AI age and beyond has never been given to us because it's based on an outdated industrial model where we believe the world still makes widgets. So that's how we train people, because we teach people to basically get a job.

So the challenge we have now, from our generation and the generation that followed us and the new one, is certain abilities are in decline. So memorization is one. Like people today, even I can't memorize all the phone numbers in my phone. If I lost it, I'd be dead.

[26:49] Jennifer: And we used to memorize that. I had that, yeah.

[26:51] Michael: Luckily, I can still weirdly… I remember my mum's home phone number verbatim. Every other number, you can forget about it. So there's that. 

And then on top of that, attention spans are worse, more than ever, because, as you say, information is constantly coming at you, which means cybersecurity is on the rise massively. In fact, the last two attacks were because of human error. 

So we are sleepwalking in a way, to an environment where we don't have the abilities to survive and adapt. We don't understand how to deal with change until we hit it for the first time in our adult life. We don't understand how to use time well. So all of these things, if you throw them in the mixing bowl, don't give you a good outcome. 

And the saddest thing of all is we give kids the mobile phone, but we never tell them where it came from. We don't tell them the innovation that it took to create that thing in your hand. 

And that saddens me because, look, I was inspired by the innovators when I was growing up. I was blown away by (Isambard Kingdom) Brunel and these people that built half our world with the craziest resources and they did it so well.

But, you know, fast forward. Two men in a garage transform technology as we know it, but we never tell their story. I think that's really sad, we've become so addicted to the device, we're not teaching the generations... 

We're putting kids in the world that is training them on the world that was and expecting them to design the future that could be. 

And there is a disconnect in that which doesn't sit well because I had my heroes growing up that inspired me to be the person I became. I struggled to understand who were the modern day heroes that our children will remember, to push them forward, to become something.

[28:40] Jennifer: Oh, that's a really good question, Michael. I need to ask them who their heroes are. I can tell you it's not Elon Musk. (chuckles) Hopefully they say it's my mom.

[28:56] Michael: That should be the default answer in all things. My answer is always the same. Look, if you're asking me who my actual heroes are, it's obviously my mum and dad. My dad, for very obvious reasons, because you only know the things your parents do for you until you pay your first bill, then you understand what they did. 

But yeah, your heroes professionally, for them, I'd be very interested to know.  Because their window of history becomes narrower and narrower because we don't teach it.

[29:24] Jennifer: Well, I'm glad you brought up history, because in your book it starts with going back in time and talking about the Gutenberg, when the printing press was invented, going all the way to modern day today. 

But before we get to your book, I wanted to mention another book. It's one of your favorite books called True North by Bill George. And in the book, Bill George defines a crucible as a severe, often painful life challenge that forces people to confront their own weaknesses and re-examine their values. 

And I believe your own crucible moment came in the form of adrenal fatigue, an illness where the adrenal glands don't make enough hormones due to chronic stress. And I was told that you were very ill and you couldn't get out of bed and your hair was starting to fall out. So many of us would probably characterize that as symptoms of extreme burnout. 

And Michael, what role did having to face this adversity play in unlocking your own human potential? And how did you eventually find your own true north?

[30:35] Michael: So, yeah, I found that book actually halfway through it. I think if I'd never been ill, I would never have understood what that meant. I would just throw that away as an empty comment that you would say to sell a book, right? 

So the irony was, everything I taught myself up to that point saved my life. So the ability to have curiosity, the ability to connect dots, the ability to understand food, the ability to understand my body allowed me to cure myself. But at the same time, you have to meet people along the way that will also give you some nuggets and help you. I was really lucky to meet those people. 

I had every symptom of cancer you can have, so they wanted to test everything. And in between then, yeah, my hair fell out. The weirdest thing was, though, my eyes stopped producing tear ducts because of the hormones, which was really painful because your eyelids would not bleed, but they would be very skin-dry, so you'd have to Vaseline your eyes to go to bed. So in the early days, it started with my thyroid, went overactive, which is horrible. Like, you're in bed, you're on fire. So what is this? 

And it all stemmed from I lost my job in J.P. Morgan because of cuts and things. I got divorced at exactly the same time. So I did everything that I shouldn't do - so I just threw myself in the gym, didn't eat properly, which then didn't help my body recover at the same time that I worked myself into the ground to sort of get over it. And of course, those things don't go together. 

So, yeah, so there was this gradual decline in the body. It's almost like a domino effect. It's like once the body needs something, it's not getting it, then something else shuts down to something else. 

So through the curiosity, it was like, okay, so let's do some research. What is this? What could this be? And then I remember going to Cardiff of all places, back to Wales, and I ended up being in a Nutrition Stop. 

And I explained to the woman what my symptoms were, so trying to buy some supplements. And she said, look, I know what's wrong with you. And she told me to buy like 10 of these things and take those and it'll be the start.

Once she told me what it was, me being me, I then started going down a rabbit hole to understand what this thing was. And then what foods could I eat to heal myself. So I found all these food combinations that would heal my liver, clean certain things, take all the supplements, go for walks.

I could go to the gym in the end, I could go once or twice a week, but I couldn't do it extensively. It was weird because the days where it was super strong, you knew that was bad because that meant your cortisol was too high. So that went on for maybe 15 months.

So day by day, you lose what you know to be looking at in the mirror. And in essence, what you're left with is just what it means to be human. You know, you stand on a platform and no one looks at you and you're invisible. So it taught you to be human, which I think is like the greatest thing that ever happened to me. 

And you also realize you don't have a value system. My father worked constantly and my only visible value system was my mother. Ironically, all the traits that I wanted in my life were in my father. So then I had to get to know him and understand his value system and adopt them. 

So out of my crucible moment, honestly, was I learned what it means to be human and I kind of dropped the ego and created a value system that didn't exist, which then ultimately set me on the path. And I always joke about this. What came out the other side with the same set of abilities, but with a completely human lens and with no ego.

So that was my crucible. It was a life-changing moment. In his words, you become what you decide to do with that moment. And for me, it created a purpose bigger than me. But at the same time, I retained all the gifts I was given, but I was given a greater gift to learn what it means to be human and how can I make a difference and what things I can do with the gifts that I've been given. 

So no, I wouldn't change a thing. I literally would not change a thing because I came through adversity. The same methodical curiosity that cured epilepsy cured this. And the irony was when I eventually got to an endocrinologist and she said to me, oh, by the way, you've cured yourself. I was like, oh, great. And now it'll take 24 months to recover. I was like, okay, not so great. (chuckles)

Yeah, you lost four years of your career almost. I was very lucky, I got a job in Nationwide and they were amazing with me. I still managed to progress. I still did some amazing things. Did I do it at the pace that I used to? No.

But I still recovered and was able then to pick up where I left off. And ironically, all of these things just happened. Look, it was all meant to be. That's the way I like to think about it.

[35:03] Jennifer: So two follow up questions to that. What does it mean to be human? And then what value system did you create for yourself?

[35:10] Micahel: Wow. What does it mean to be human? 

I think to be human it means you have purpose and you have empathy and you have understanding. That separates us from, I say, the animals, but from technology as well. Okay, you could say a machine has a purpose, but it's programmed. And I have inbuilt ethics and I have judgment. 

But to be human is also, which is how I wrote my book, is we believe in the power of story. And we are probably one of the few species that knows we're going to live and know we die and we're conscious. So I think those are the fundamentals that make us who we are. 

I can't remember all of my values because they're actually on my phone. I look at them from time to time. Or is there a way to keep me honest? Say, am I still living my life the way that I should?

I met a lady many years ago, and it really stuck with me. She said, imagine two circles, one inner circle and one outer circle. The inner circle becomes your non-negotiables. The outer circle is the stuff that you just put up with. But the inner stuff is what makes you who you are. And it's the things that become non-negotiable, like honesty becomes a critical thing for a lot of people. 

I like to silver line everything as a core value. I don't like to look at the world as glass empty, or oh, it's terrible. There's a silver lining in everything. It comes back to, what am I not seeing? 

Because if your attitude is always optimistic and abundant and never sees the negative, but maybe there's something in this that could create something new, your mind changes.

Because otherwise we can get bogged down with the narrative of the news or we can get bogged down with inner voices, but actually if you silver line everything that happens to you in your life and you live with abundance and curiosity, that changes everything. 

Because now I wake up every day, I don't look for the negatives in things. I look for what's the story within the story that I'm not being told. And that value, ironically, is the one that I probably stick to the most.

The other one, which I think we don't do enough of is always look at the world through somebody else's eyes. Like maybe we get a taxi and the taxi's late, so we shout at the taxi driver. But the question is, do you think he wanted to be late? Because we don't know what happened to him 20 minutes ago.

So we never put ourselves in the shoes of the individual and how they feel and how they think and what are they seeing in this situation. So that was another big value change because then it taught me to look at people very differently. 

Because look, we don't get up every day in the morning with an agenda to be terrible to each other. We just live in a reality, and how we interact with that reality is going to determine our day.

But that means everybody around us is also living in their own reality and dealing with their own problems and their own highs and their own lows. It just so happens your realities collide in that moment and whatever happened to them is now impacting you, but you're reacting because of how it impacted you, not what it means for them. 

So I think that was a value that I discovered and I think it served me well because it's got rid of (the) ego to put myself in the shoes of somebody else rather than making my own judgment.

[38:21] Jennifer: Maybe because we live in this age of acceleration that we're very reactive to other people's aggression. Empathy is not easy to cultivate these days.

Michael, you are a phenomenal storyteller and I was told that you actually studied how to tell stories. And so my next question is, what are the key elements in compelling storytelling?

[38:48] Michael: So my study of stories I think is a self-learned thing, like my life. Again looking back, it comes from the choices of stories that I read. But also along the way, people said things to me that really stuck with me. 

So this book was written three times, not to do your one page any disservice, but I wrote the whole thing three times.

Maybe you're interested in why it took so long. one of the reasons was I had to do R&D and real fact writing. But I hated what I wrote because it was boring and nobody's interested in facts, right?

And two separate events actually shaped what I believe is a good story. So the first thing someone said to me is, people remember stories - you have to be able to write a compelling story because no one remembers any facts whatsoever. 

And the other thing is you need people to feel the story, like do the words come off the page? And are these things that you will quote and you will remember? 

The second part of is that people remember the one. And this also works in movies because we all love the hero's journey. The stories that are most compelling have somebody for you to believe in. And a good story should have a good balance of characters, but not overwhelming. 

Because at the end of the day when the reader can't remember all the characters, you’re lost, because you want people to be able to relate to at least one or two of them, or if not all of them. 

So and I also think a really good story is what do you want people to take away from it? You know, what is the key message of that story that you want people to hold on to? 

The other key rule I heard, and I've applied it into my presentations, into my writing, is that you cannot be the hero of the story. This is not your story. This is somebody else's story. You're just the narrator of the story. The story is not about you. 

And for many writers, probably that's hard because you have to let your ego go. My role in writing now is I am the storyteller. And the other next piece of the puzzle is who are you writing for? Because if you don't know who you're writing for, you don't know who you're trying to reach. And then the story gets muddled.

So you kind of build this arc if you like, and then think about where your story is set, where's the scene, what does it look like and make sure the scene is consistent. And any good story, the reader needs to know where they are at any point in time. Simple things like telling them what time of day it is because otherwise it feels like this never ending run and they have no idea where they are. 

The other thing is, if you're going to use metaphors, ground them. Ground them into something that's actionable and real. So this is why this was such a fascinating book for me to write, because I had to learn things that I didn't know, like I had to learn how to world-build. 

So the whole storytelling And the beauty of this is we do this from birth - we were born to be storytellers. Why do we go see the pyramids in Egypt? We don't go and see some massive pyramid. No, no, we might do, but the realism is we want to go and understand the stories of the past. 

Because when we first walked this earth, we sat around fires and we told stories. Cave paintings are stories. So sadly, we forgot… in the age of information, we now are regurgitating facts to audiences rather than a story for them to believe in.

So I hope one of my big trends in the future is we discover what it means to tell compelling stories. And you know, there's many different building blocks around how you tell a good story. 

But I think if you stick to those things and you know who you're writing for and you earmark your characters and you know the journey and the story and where you want it to go. 

And then sometimes less is more too. So I had some rules in the chapters and how many pages I would write, how many words I would write, and things that force you to be concise. So yeah, there's a lot of things.

[42:41] Jennifer: So the book has been described by some early readers as a modern day Alchemist meets Blade Runner. Stylistically, it's written in a very simple way and it was a very easy read, and I finished the book in two days and I was wondering if you could give us a brief overview of the book without giving too much away.

[43:01] Michael: Okay, so the interesting thing is the book itself was originally written as a story about data - it was a very dry topic. And what the book eventually became is a story of purpose and identity and community. 

So the book is solely focused on a character called Esra. So I chose characters with universal names that would cross cultures. Esra has something that happens in his life, he notices things that send him off, like in the Alchemist. In any good story, you need to give your character pain, and you need to give them a catalyst to start something.

So he has a dream of a different world where technology isn't to automate us out, it's there to support us. Data isn't lost, and basically all of these things that we worry about today.

But he also has another dream, which is really bad, where the world crumbles, and it's not good along the way. Then he can't let go of this dream, and he finds a book which ultimately becomes his guide and shows him the world of technology and history that maybe he's never heard before, which outlines the things that we missed and all the opportunities with technology, and maybe some things we need to rethink.

Along the way, 

As the book progresses, like in any good arc of a story, he moves from observer to leading. So at a certain point in the story, he joins some dots. He meets somebody, won't give it away, but we think he wrote the book. We don't know. He never reveals his name, but he provides a guiding force.

And then he's taken somewhere where he learns to piece all of this together. Now, along the way, he will meet someone who's a representation of our past and our present and our possible future. 

He became a metaphor for our world. Esra isn't a real person. Esra actually is a symbol for all of us, but I just made him a boy because the assumption was anybody below the age of 30 probably doesn't know the world any differently. So it's perfect. 

But it also forced me to ensure that every time an adult said something to him, it would force me to say, well, would an adult say that to a child? And would a child understand it? It made the writing so crisp and concise. And it was written at a 14-15 year old reading level, which is great. 

And obviously towards the end then he has a bit of a face off with a villainous character, and does what he needs to do. 

The reason the book was called Our Moment is he realizes at a certain point this was never his dream - this was our dream. And the Our Moment is a choice. And he is presented as AI is actually a catalyst for good and an opportunity to address some of the things in our life that we haven't addressed for a long time, like the way we learn, the way we work, the outdated industrial model, the representation of our economy, all of these things. 

But then more importantly, that path shows us what we can have and what that means for inclusion, what that means for everybody. So the whole idea of the book was to show people what it could be for them to want it. 

And almost in my mind, it was like, I need to write a book first for those who demand change, those of a generation that don't know any different but may want what is being described as possible, because it is possible. Everything in there is real, but it's just told in a way that makes you go, actually, that's really interesting, I hadn't thought about that, (it’s) never been told that way. 

And the last chapter then, which we give away for free, which was this extra chapter we came up with, I thought it’d be really cool if the boy became a man. And it's my favorite chapter in the whole book. 

I hear music writers say that they don't know how songs happen, they just come out of the sky. That's my last chapter. I wrote it in 20 minutes. No idea where it came from - I couldn't tell you. It just happened. It was like 10 o' clock at night, dark outside - came down, just wrote it. (The) publisher said, don't change anything. 

So there are some interesting facts about the book. The book apparently breaks the rules of publishing, unknown to your listeners probably, or viewers. All books are indented to the left by design by a publisher. 

When I gave them my manuscript, it's written as a poem, it's in prose, so it's centered. So apparently in the first round of edits, they weren't sure because it was edited by five people. Carol, my executive editor, was amazing. I think she said on a recent podcast, which blew me away, it's her favorite book of all time behind the Alchemist, which is like, wow, that blew my mind. 

But she told me afterwards, I never showed any of the other editors what you'd done until the end. And once I showed them the end, they read the first two pages and they said, change nothing, this is amazing, we love it. So it stayed. 

And there's some nuances in the book. Some people will notice, some won't. Characters are actually verbatim of my favorite movie characters. So a lot of the characters’ mannerisms are taken from my favorite characters. A lot of the scenes in the book are taken from my favorite movies, just adapted. 

I've had the most amazing feedback from the people that I hadn't anticipated, but I'd also hoped, like very prominent 16 year olds - Elliston Berry being one of them, which blew my mind, who was important with the Take It Down Act in America, said it should be in every school, which was incredibly humbling.

Right up to my parents who were 80, who have no idea what I do for a living, but loved the book and totally understood it. So in many respects, I did my job. I spoke to the people who know nothing and I gave them something. 

So in a way, I hope that Our Moment was a new story for us to believe in at a time where we probably need a new story and a new narrative. And that's what the book became and that's what it is.

[48:24] Jennifer: And what I really love about the book is that you point out where we had gone wrong like measures of success. 

So we equate technological development with human progress and also we measure our output in terms of GDP based on data. But there are many things that we cannot value with GDP or data. So the book made me think, it made me question the system that we are part of creating.

And you had mentioned that the book took you three years to write. Did you already have the vision of the world that you wanted to create three years ago?

[49:05] Michael: Yeah, longer than that - I still have original writing. 

This is the weird thing, I wrote the paper in Mastercard that kicked it all off. But then when I look back in my Dropbox and all my stage drives, it goes back to 2015, goes back a decade.

The three years, really... Look, I had to solve real problems to be able to write about them. So the first manuscripts were really me getting it out of my head and then every time I come up with something, I had to solve another problem. 

So, for example, if people have their own personal AI, data literacy is the worst it's ever been. Okay, that's not good. So why? And then I had to create... I didn't have to, but I did, I created the new learning model for schools on abilities-based learning. Okay, that solves that problem. 

Then if data is to become shareable, it has to become an asset. What does that mean? So I had to define all of that. So I had to define that and see if that would work. 

So I ended up creating all of the technology framework to make all of this work that I described, but at the end of it, a cross between McKinsey and a really boring academic. So the irony is all of that stuff feeds into my second book because that has to be a very different voice. 

Our Moment took six months to write from start to finish. But that's because I'd done all the heavy lifting before and had all the stats, all the insight, all the research. 

And actually to write Our Moment and find my voice, I had to go back in time. I had to forget who I am now, I had to forget who I was and how I got here. So I had to go back to the 14-year old boy who read classics in his bedroom and read books with cinematography and heroes, and that was it. 

And now I can go back because I remembered the things I loved, the writers I adored, how I used to write myself. It's like, because over time we just put too much in our head and it just gets muddled and crumpled and you forget so many things that got you here.

So I had to remember how I got here. And that became the writing style, a combination of all the authors I loved and the books and then my own internal dialogue. I found a voice and then it was like, right, I refuse to write anything professional, I refuse to read any more books until this book is done, because I don't want to lose my voice. 

But, yeah, no, that's why it took so long. And it went through a million titles. You can find me on podcasts with about a million different titles. They're all awful. But the one that I found came and it just fitted. Even the subtitle came by accident because I put it into the movie trailer.

I met a friend who's a philosopher, and he said, oh, your book needs a subtitle. I said, I know. I don't know, though. And I worked with someone to create a trailer, and we came up with this line, and I showed the publisher. That's the subtitle for your book, by the way. 

Everything serendipitously came together at the right time. It took three years. But ironically, I'm harvesting a lot of that material now for the second book, so nothing was lost. But the tone obviously will change. 

And the book that I did became part of me in a way, and it was hard to give up. But sometimes, now, as I would like to think, I'm now just the steward of the story, now it's up to the world to decide what it is.

[52:06] Jennifer: Well, when I read the book, I could feel that you put a lot of heart.  You put all of yourself out there to give birth to this book for sure.

[52:14] Michael: I'm in this, in there somewhere. Like, there's part of me that is Esra.

[52:18] Jennifer: You're definitely in there, Michael. (chuckles)

[52:21] Michael: Yeah, Esra is me. There's certain bits of what he says in his life and what he experiences is me. But that was just by accident. That was just what happens when you're giving your soul to something. 

The point of the story was Esra was only ever to be a metaphor and a symbol. I just had to give him some characteristics and some visualizations because, one, the publisher made me, and two, we at least have to give the reader something to visualize. You can't just be an empty shell of a human being. So. Yeah.

[52:48] Jennifer: Well, I also love the cinematography of the book.

[52:52] Michael: Yeah, this is the Blade Runner. This is the Blade Runner influence.

[52:55] Jennifer: Blade Runner. And it was also very rainy weather. It's also because maybe where you come from in Wales.

[53:01] Michael: Possible there was a hint of that, there was no umbrellas, though. 

Again, this comes back to some of the books I read as a child. They made you feel like they were there. Like I had memories of being in my bedroom as a child. It was raining in Wales. No surprise. It was dark outside. But I was in a different place when I read. It was like I'm somewhere else. I could feel it. 

And I wanted the reader to feel like they were there. I wanted them to. As I was describing it, can you feel the rain? Can you feel the wind? Can you feel where you are? Can you visualize what he's visualizing? And the only way to do that is to tap into cinematography and really make powerful metaphors. 

And it was hard in the beginning because they were so good. They almost took up most chapters. You had to decide then what you would cut. And you have to be really cruel to yourself and go, I love that line, but my ego says I have to get rid of it. Sorry. So you have to cut it. 

But, oh, it gave the book atmosphere and it gave the reader a feeling. And I think that combination with the human story, with the ability to imagine yourself in a world, I think made it what it is because it almost made it cinematic rather than just another story, I hope, anyway.

[54:12] Jennifer: Well, it is, because throughout most of the book, you're describing a very dystopic world, very similar to the Blade Runner type of world. Lots of rain and lights and cities and neons, puddles. That's what I remember, at least. And then towards the end, you started to describe what the future vision could look like if we worked collaboratively with AI. 

I was wondering, you had mentioned your favorite part of the book is from the last chapter. I was wondering if you would like to share some of that excerpt from that chapter with the audience.

[54:49] Michael: Oh, yeah. So there's a few, actually. 

And I think the most important part of this book is actually the prologue, because the prologue was the test. Would this writing style land? Because I'm pretty sure no one expected me to write a book like this because they were expecting the management consultant book. So it was a risk as well. 

In the prologue, it seems appropriate to read this part of the book, which is:

This book begins with a question, one that wouldn't leave me alone. What if we were missing something? What if intelligence, real human intelligence, isn't something to automate away, but to elevate? What if data isn't just a resource for mine, but a reflection of who we are? And what if the machines we’ve built aren't the threat, but the mirror? 

What you're about to read is not just a story. It's a reminder of what we once had and what we still might become. A glimpse of what could be if we dare to act.

So there is a chapter or a set of chapters where he (Esra) gets close to modern day. So he needs to understand the Internet age and how we got here. Now the big challenge was I thought about this for a very long time. 

So how do I do this? And I thought, okay, wouldn't it be cool if he found just some random tech repair shop in the middle of all this futuristic dystopian world that doesn't belong there and he just happens to walk in?  Now wouldn't it be cool if I suddenly gave him some humor? 

I created a character that basically is a mix of Jeffrey Price and the character from Guardians of the Galaxy. So this allowed me to like, play with a bit of humor, but then also bring the philosophy in as it came. So 

Behind the counter, the old man leaned over a machine, thick goggles strapped to his face. He muttered to it like it might wake up if he said the right thing. 

“You’re late,” he said, not looking up. “Real memories are harder to come by these days. But hey, you didn’t step on the cat, so you’re already better than most.” 

The old man finally looked. Grinned. “Looking for a cursed music player? Or maybe a fax machine that only prints ‘I miss you’ messages from 1998?”

Esra shook his head. “I’m not here to buy. I think you know something.” The Merchant paused. His eyes were too bright for someone living in so much shadow. He glanced at the book and folder in Esra’s hand.  And then something shifted.

He reached out slowly, fingertips brushing the folder like it might dissolve. “You kept it alive,” he whispered.

It allowed me to sort of play with humor and keep it a little bit more grounded. And then there's also the character, then who we think wrote the book, but we never really learned that. It's kind of implied. I'll give you a clue. I don't know if you saw this, but no one else can see what's in the book other than Esra.

[57:29] Jennifer: Yes, I did realize that.

[57:31] Michael: Okay, fine. But you realize that this other guy can.

[57:34] Jennifer: Stranger!?

[57:35] Michael: Yeah. So you don't know, like, how the hell can he read it and no one else can? And see, it's always implied. It's like this little subtle thing that I buried. 

Come, Esra,” he said, his voice trailing behind him like smoke. “There is much more to learn. 

Esra blinked. “How do you know my name?” 

The Stranger didn’t turn. His voice drifted back over his shoulder, calm and gravel edged. “You’ve been walking toward this moment your whole life. I just remembered first.” 

And then the last piece was my publisher rang, emailed me, and said, look, I've had a weird dream. I can't really explain this, but I know how to end your book. So we jumped on the phone and she gave me enough to be dangerous and I just ran with it then. 

So I combined two of my favorite scenes of a courtroom, which is actually a mixture of the Superman movie and one of the Marvel movies. The scene where he's being led down the front with handcuffs is the courtroom.

Far back, in the topmost tier, a shadow passed. Unannounced. Unregistered. A hooded figure walked slowly down the steps. Unhurried. Unbothered. The Stranger. He moved like time forgot him. He found a seat, dead center at the back. Crossed one leg over the other. Esra looked up. Their eyes met for a moment that felt like memory and prophecy at once. 

The Stranger tipped his hat and nodded once. Esra smiled. Soft. Certain.  He turned back to the bench. The old world stared back, familiar, unchallenged, unchanged.  A system that never questioned itself until someone came with nothing to prove.  Only something to offer. 

The chamber held still. Not in awe, but anticipation. The man leaned forward. His voice lower now. No challenge. Just the question behind everything. “Then tell me, Esra . . .  Why are you here?” 

Esra looked out at them. The watchers. The doubters.  The forgotten. The world. He turned back to the mic. “I’m here,” he said, voice even, clear. “To see if the world remembers how to dream.” The bulbs flashed. A hum flickered through the room. No one moved. Not even the drones outside. And for a moment the world really did stop.

And it felt like that was the appropriate moment to bring it full circle, where the boy becomes a man and he goes from an observer to someone leading and driving 

And that was the arc I had to create, which is the art of a story is where your hero evolves to the point now where he is the man, excuse the pun, and he's the one now holding 

and saying, well, maybe we should try and dream again. 

And I just created the mic drop and basically said, right, that's the end of it. Where could this go? And let's leave it there.

[01:00:11] Jennifer: That's why when you told me that you were working (on) your second book, I was asking you if it's going to be a sequel to the current story. (chuckles)

[01:00:19] Michael: No, the second book had to be... I owe it to too many people. So I've had interesting feedback on the book. I mean, you and I have talked about this. The people who know nothing adore the book. The people too close to the topic were hoping I would give them the how in the entire playbook of how to do it. 

Now, clearly, and this was the failing in the original versions of the book. Coming back to know your audience. I was writing this for too many people. Half the book was the history that you were interested in. Then suddenly I was writing for policymakers, and I'd lost half my audience. 

So I had to create the why and the what to be able to then write the how. But the how, unfortunately, won't be written like Our Moment, because it has to be written almost like an economist. So I'm really telling policymakers, government leaders, and possibly university students what this new economy needs to look like. What are its pillars, and how will it function? 

So the good news is I don't need to tell history again. What I need to tell people is, what is an actual economy? Because we hear that so many times, they don't know. And then ultimately, why is it diverging? And then what does that look like? 

And how does that help policymakers then actually implement this? And what our education system looks like and everything above it. That book probably will be the last book I will write as nonfiction. 

I think there's something more in this book that needs to be explored. But I'm a huge believer that you can't force these things. It will come when it's ready. There were times when I wrote the book, days I didn't write because it just didn't come. It was like forcing art. You can't. You've just got to let it be. 

So, yeah, there will be something that comes of Our Moment. People keep asking me but we will see.

[01:01:52] Jennifer: Wonderful. I would love to hear your book three as a sequel to Esra's story. 

Reading the book, I have two questions. And the first question is, and I'm still struggling with this, and maybe you're going to say a little bit more in the second book, but what is the true human potential? What does that mean?  

And I don't think most of us reach our true potential. And that might be the whole purpose of life, is to unlock the human potential. But I feel like that many of us don't really get there.

So even reading the book and reading about what a futuristic world might look like in your vision, or in the vision that Esra had dreamt about, I still don't really concretely understand what the true human potential means. So that's one question. So maybe we can start with that one.

[01:02:45] Michael: Yeah, that's kind of a big one. What's the meaning of life? 

In the original manuscript, I actually wrote 7P's of human potential. Because you need a framework, right? Everybody likes a framework. And I kind of created it because there was a realization that none of us have actually reached the potential in these elements in our life. 

So prosperity is one, performance is one, psychological is one, which is the power of the mind. Performance when it comes to health, when it comes to longevity. Prosperity means understanding your financials. There's personal, which is your relationships and your social interaction.

So when I kind of looked at it through that lens, it dawned on me that not one person alive has reached their potential. No one. Not even Elon Musk. If you look at those seven Ps, he excels in probably one or two of them. The others he does not. 

So that leads me then to question. Everything has an origin story, which is why I went back to education, which is why an abilities-based learning model will unlock that potential. Because you're unlocking human potential from a point in time where you are, not where you could be. 

Again I looked at myself and how I learned to learn, because that's basically what I did. There was a number of abilities that I unlocked to make that possible. Some of those I had instinctively and some of those were learned behaviors and abilities. 

So abilities like critical thinking, the ability to debate, the ability to have empathy and judgment, the ability to unlearn and learn, the ability to have purpose, all of these abilities are never taught to children. 

So how on earth is a child going to go in the world and be multimodal and adaptable when they don't even have the abilities in the first place to be that? Because we've taught them to get a job. 

So to have the ability to lock on human potential means you need to be taught foundational abilities from day one. But those abilities can be learned in later life as well. 

And I put it into three buckets.There's either going to be abilities you already have as an individual, which you just need to keep strengthening. But there's things we need to regain because we lost them because of technology, because we became lazy and the muscle weakened.

And the third piece of the puzzle is stuff we just need to learn because we just don't have it. Data literacy would be one of those. AI literacy would be one of those. And then the other stuff you would build up through your career. 

I think one of the things that we don't learn is the ability to manage change. We're not taught that as children, we are not taught to manage fundamental change. The people, unfortunately, that we experience change with are failed relationships, our loss of job, moving to a new country. That's the first time we experienced that, as in adulthood.

And the thing that worries me is we're telling people we're going to put AI in the classroom. Well, that doesn't help anyone because you have to be very specific of the role that you want AI to play. 

Because the human brain, in terms of the frontal cortex and what we know to be real or not, doesn't fully form until, my God, in your early twenties. So that says right from the age of one until probably the age of ten, I need to teach you what it means to be human and all these foundational abilities. 

AI will be in the classroom, but it will be for the teacher as a storyteller. It will tell you versions of events and things and the teacher will facilitate. But you will be the ones learning those abilities through discussion and through all these various elements. 

The simple fact is the machine now owns knowledge, which is pattern matching principles and the ability then to surface content. We now need to discover wisdom, which is the ability to unlock that content and that knowledge, to do things with it, to challenge it, to accept it, to know what to do with it. That is wisdom.

So for us to actually unlock our potential in our financial life, in our relationships, in the way that we manage our health and longevity, all of these things, we have to have those abilities in the first place, which was the underlying story in the book, but I never gave it all away.

because ultimately, 

So when I finished the book, I carried on writing that framework and that curriculum. That's about 60-70 pages now of a future of work model and the educational framework because in a way that was just as important to be able to unlock that potential you're describing.

[01:06:46] Jennifer: I'd love to get a copy of the 7Ps Michael.

[01:06:49] Michael: Oh yes, it's in my old manuscript, I can dig it out for you. I have all them broken down, I know exactly where they are.

[01:06:54] Jennifer: Okay, I'd love to include that in the show notes to have a structured way to think about human potential. 

My second question, in your book you talk about AI as a catalyst, we're at a very unique moment in human history. Michael, how long do we have? Are we talking about 18 months? Are we talking about three years?

[01:07:13] Michael: You know, it's funny, we're starting to see the cracks already and it's kind of very subtle. Look at an economic level with my economist hats on, they're already happening, like markets are forgetting fundamentals of analysis. 

They're literally saying like, over the last couple of weeks you've seen share prices of well-known software companies crash because the market believes they don't have a future because of AI. But then they're not looking at the fact that these companies already have AI technology and they're already changing. So that's the first thing. 

The second issue is the emergence of AI agents, or as I call them experts in the book. Our economy doesn't cater for that because GDP, the foundations of which you mentioned earlier, are based on human labor. 

So the national statistics are based on human output in conjunction with a machine. So the machine enables economic output, but at the end of the day, the human is key to production and labor. 

Where we're going is a hybrid. In some cases the economic output will be totally automated and driven by a machine. In some cases it will be a collaboration between machine and human. 

Our GDP model does not cater for that. Our GDP model also does not cater for other assets that are also important - the environment, sentiment, the role of data. Our accounting models don't cater for any of this. Our balance sheets don't cater for any of this. 

So we are seeing ripple effects across the whole piece. And the thing that worries me the most is that governments are not joining the dots. They are too busy focusing on privacy and technology, which I agree with. It's the right thing to do, of course.

But we've also lost the ability of second-order consequences. We almost make decisions very narrowly today, with my system thinking hat on, we don't actually look at the knock-on impact of that decision we just made and the knock-on dependencies, the second, the third order, not now, but in months later and years later, what did that decision actually result in? 

So I think we have time because look, the economy still functions, everything's still great, everything will function. But at some point we're going to see job losses, we are going to see we can't get away from that fact. 

AI relies on human ability to interpret the outputs that AI creates. Because the reality in this is AI is not generating outputs, it's generating inputs to us to do something with. We need to stop looking at it as generating output, but input. 

So if everybody's getting fired because it's more efficient and cost productive, businesses will lose their competitive advantage because it's those experiences and abilities of your workforce that's going to make you competitive because they're going to be augmented by the machine. 

So this whole job loss narrative is gaining traction unnecessarily because we are still in the mindset of the industrial age where we need machines to create more productivity, but actually it's going to erode productivity over time. 

I think 2026 will be the year of regulation. I think this will be the year where the human starts to become at the center. So and it's happening, right? You're seeing social media being banned in certain countries for certain age groups. You're seeing certain companies being sued for inciting certain behavior on their platforms. You're seeing people being sued for the data they take. 

So this is a perfect storm where people are going to step back. My only concern with banning social media is that's like after the horse is bolted, the failure is the lack of regulation and guide rails in the first place. 

If you allow this to exist, you should be asking yourself the question, what are the impacts and outcomes, second order and third order, in years to come. What do we create as a consequence? 

We are not looking at technology and software as now driving economies. It's not just something to be productive. So governments need to look at this at a much broader lens. 

Like, for example, we still regulate AI as an individual piece of technology. It's not ChatGPT or Claude. It's a piece of software that can exist in other software. It can help amputees move 3D generated limbs. It can work in digital twin software. 

So, look, I think things will change in the next two years, but I think it's going to be bumpy and I think it's going to take governments in the true “our moment” narrative is to look at this as a catalyst and take a proper step back and almost go back to first principles and say, right, is this the chance to what do we know to be true? And what are the things that we need to address from the way we work, the way we live and the way we learn.

And the other big elephant in the room, and I wrote about this the other day, are we finally going to reach a point where certain technology providers are seen as critical service infrastructure? Not as software, because they are now basically an essential service to the economy. 

It baffles me that the most important asset that runs through an economy and the companies that touch it still are allowed to treat it like software, but it's gone past that point. 

So that's why, I mean, this is a moment. This is a moment to decide the direction we want to take this across all of those different facets, but also a moment for regulators to rethink how they make decisions. When they make a decision, are they looking at the bigger narrative rather than the narrow decision they have to make right now?

[01:12:27] Jennifer: And does it scare you that we will not make the right choice, Michael?

[01:12:31] Michael: Yeah, that does scare me. It scares me, though, in different ways. 

So it scares me (that) we make choices because of what's in front of us, not what's possible. It scares me because we will also leave people behind, nations that deserve to be part of it, because they have data to bring to the table that we've never seen, that could solve a disease or solve a real problem. 

Like, I made a case in the book that there's no such thing as a less developed nation. It doesn't exist. What it really means is a nation of people with less resources that have figured out how to do more. There's no such thing as less developed - it doesn't exist.

The truth is we just haven't given them the capability to thrive. As in, we take, but we don't give. So we take all of their resources to clean data in machines, yet we don't leave the technology behind they help create. 

So, and I know from banking that financial inclusion has never really been solved. But the biggest worry is, could connectivity and data inclusion be even worse? 

So what worries me is we're not looking at this as a holistic picture of what the world is going to be if we make these choices and we make these decisions. That's what worries me the most, is that we're just not taking a bigger picture narrative. 

And the other piece of the puzzle is we're not putting humanity in the center. We're almost being driven by technology to be bigger and faster and better. Like, why does it matter if a machine is better than a human? Why is that the priority? 

I wrote it in the book, the mistake we made was Garry Kasparov got beaten by a machine. That was the biggest mistake we ever made. If he'd have played with the machine, every child in the world would have wanted a machine to work with them. They would have seen it as a collaborative partner, not as a competitor. From the very outset, we made it a competitor rather than a compatriot and a partner. 

So, yeah, that's what worries me. It worries me that we make choices in a very narrow way and we don't think of the second- and the third-order impact. And we also don't make it with the human in the center and we also don't make it collaborative. It's almost like one side vs. the other vs. all the right people around the table, all of the stakeholders and what we need to do.

[01:14:36] Jennifer: Thank you. Thank you so much for sharing your perspective. What are your predictions and trends for the future?

[01:14:43] Michael: So few. So one, I think the biggest trend will be us. I think humanity will be a trend in terms of how we evolve and how we change. 

I think the second is AI agents will continue to grow. I think in the next 18 months you'll see marketplaces like app stores for agents that do specific things. You'll be able to download an agent that does legal work for you or does all these things that's coming. 

The space economy is real. I wouldn't say space economy, but because it's not an economy. But the way we exchange goods will extend itself to space and the way we think about infrastructure will move off planet. That's a guaranteed. 

I also think we'll see a shift into a proper new economy, an economy underpinned by intelligence. 

I also think the biggest trend will be the year of regulation. I think over the next two to three years we'll see the regulator start to get their arms around this. What that will be, I don't know.

[01:15:30] Jennifer: Okay, and then how do you see yourself, let's say 10 years from now under this context of the future trends?

[01:15:37] Michael: Yeah, that makes me 60 and that's very scary.

I think, look, if all goes to plan in 10 years time, still learning, still curious, still creating, maybe lecturing one day, but more importantly working with governments and nations and leaders to sort of navigate this thing. 

But in the words of DaVinci, I'm still learning.And my hope is at 60, I'm still learning and I'm still applying and still doing.

[01:16:00] Jennifer: And if you weren't doing what you're doing now, what would you be doing?

[01:16:04] Michael: I don't know. I think If I'd have carried on the path that I was wanting to be, ironically, I'd be a sports nutritionist, probably living in America, because that was always the plan. 

Ironically, that third job I took in a software company, I was only ever meant to stay there to save some money to go and study in the American College of Sports Medicine. So if that path had stayed open, that's where I'd be. And then I'd be in a very different person at a very different place. 

But yeah, either that or design has always been a passion, so there's no reason why I probably wouldn't play a role in the design field.

[01:16:38] Jennifer: Speaking of sports nutritionists, and I know it's getting close to your dinner time, Michael. What is a typical meal like for you? Like in the exact proportion. 

[01:16:48] Michael: I can tell you, my crazy, exactly what I'm going to eat straight after this. 

So I eat five times a day. I have two coaches. I have one that does my food and one that does my training. I don't count my calories because he just tells me what to eat and I weigh it. 

This is probably to some people disgusting, but for me it's very nice. So I have like 50 grams of blueberries, I have three boiled eggs, I have 150 grams of turkey, and I have a banana with some olive oil. 

And I typically fast as well. I'm eating a bit late tonight because of the podcast, but I usually will stop eating at 5pm and I won't eat again until 5am and I'll do cardio at night and I'll go for a walk and stuff and I'll drink my usual amount of water and electrolytes and stuff. But yeah, that's usually my last meal and then I'm done. 

But I have a different diet when I don't train. So when I don't train the meals because food becomes less in calories, like I said, I don't follow the calories, I just know they're there and just the weights change and some of the foods change. 

But yeah, that's the last meal - sat in a plate in a bowl in the kitchen as we speak, ready to go.

[01:17:39] Jennifer: And you wake up at 5am to eat?

[01:17:42] Michael I do. So my habit is I get up at 5, I'll eat, then go back to bed, get up. 

I know you've seen this. So I have a whiteboard where I time-box my day. So my whole day is time-boxed from the moment I get up to the moment I go to bed. I even put on the times when I need to do stuff in the night. 

So I become really militant with time because I think, look, we're all given 24 hours, it's just what you do with those 24 hours that matter. And it's not something I write on there just because it makes me feel better. 

In a way, it's kind of nice because sometimes we forget how much we achieve in a day. And when you're giving yourself gratitude at the end of the day, which I think you should, I look at that ball and go, my God, I did so much today. I did this and this. 

And also, I'm very specific when I take meetings and when I do calls, because I like to figure out where my deep work is, when I think the most. So typically for me, mornings are my creative side, and the afternoons is when I do my writing and my research. 

Now, some days I'll have a break and I'll make sure my meetings in the afternoon, so I'm still able to do my deep work in the morning. 

So the gym is in the morning, that’s where I think. You asked me what's changed with the gym through my life because of bullying, gym became a place of hate. 

But as I got older, it became a lifestyle and it became a form of meditation for me because it's the only place I can go where I don't look at my phone. And it's just me versus me. And I'm also surrounded by people who are like me in that moment. So for me, it's that way to kickstart my day.

When I'm done with you today, we have this podcast, you will be ticked off.

[01:19:09] Jennifer: Oh, your flip chart. I want to see that flip chart right now. (chuckles)

[01:19:16] Michael: Every morning I do it. So I don't assume I'm going to be here tomorrow. So as soon as I get up after my first sleep, I'll write it and then I'll be done.  And then I'm. Yeah, that's my day.

[01:19:25] Jennifer: Oh, I think I'm going to adopt that practice. 

I also just want to mention to the audience that you can find Michael Clark at MichaelClark.ai and the book Our Moment at OurMoment.ai.

We're now coming to the end of our interview, and as you know, we end every episode with a quote. And for this episode, we have a quote from Michael’s book, Our Moment:

“One voice with a vision can change everything.”

Thank you, Michael, and thank you for taking the time to join us today, and all the wisdom that you have shared with us, and I wish you all the best in helping others to unlock their human potential. Thank you.

[01:20:09] Michael: Thank you so much.

[01:20:12] Jennifer: Our podcasts are shared freely with the public, and your generosity is highly appreciated as we decided to do away with corporate sponsorships a few years ago. Please consider supporting us on Patreon so we can continue creating meaningful episodes with inspiring guests - that is P-A-T-R-E-O-N.com/TheFounderSpirit. 

As always, you can find us on Apple, Amazon and Spotify, as well as social media and our website at TheFounderSpirit.com.

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