[00:02] Jennifer Wu: Hi everyone, thanks for listening to The Founder Spirit podcast. I'm your host, Jennifer Wu. In this podcast series, I interview exceptional individuals from all over the world with the founder spirit, ranging from social entrepreneurs, tech founders, to philanthropists, elite athletes, and more. Together, we'll uncover not only how they managed to succeed in facing multiple challenges, but also who they are as people and their human story. 

The following episode was recorded during the Villars Summit. The Founder Spirit Podcast is proud to be a partner of the Villars Institute, a nonprofit foundation focused on accelerating the transition to a net-zero (and nature-positive) economy and restoring planetary health.

“The ocean is our life support system and it's in trouble, meaning we're in trouble, because our security depends on ocean security.”

“We're at a level where it's clear we must come together. We've never been better prepared in all of our history to secure an enduring place for ourselves. Or to lose it.”

“Our ability to destroy is unprecedented. But it is coupled with something that is special about humans. We do have the capacity to feel compassion - we can feel empathy. It's the best hope for our continued existence.”

Joining us today is the lengendary Sylvia Earle, an American marine biologist, oceanographer, explorer, author, and lecturer. The first female Chief Scientist of NOAA, the U.S. National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, Sylvia has been a National Geographic Explorer-at-Large since 1998 and was named by Time Magazine as its first Hero for the Planet.

Dedicating her entire life to protecting the ocean and its wildlife, she founded the nonprofit Mission Blue to support ocean exploration, research and care by developing a global network of “Hope Spots” to safeguard and restore ocean biodiversity, climate stability and human prosperity.

A pioneer in ocean technology and engineering, Sylvia led the first team of female aquanauts living underwater in 1970. Later, she set solo diving records in the Jim Suit and the DeepRover.

Just how did Sylvia become the first woman to walk solo on the ocean floor and go on to become a trailblazing voice for the blue heart of our planet?

Now without much further ado, I am honored to share with all of you this meaningful exchange with a living legend, Her Deepness, Sylvia Earle. 

[03:05 Jennifer: Sylvia, you are a National Geographic Explorer at Large, the Founder and the Chairwoman of Mission Blue, the founding Planetary Guardian. You've spent so much time underwater. And you're 90 years old, and you look amazing. 

[03:21] Sylvia: I guess it is. I just don't think about it that much, although I'm keenly aware that it's a privilege to be around for as many decades as I do.

We, in the 21st century, are living longer, we're living better and healthier. There's a lot of grief in the world and real problems, and there's a lot of poverty and there's war and disease and many things. 

But overall, if you think about humankind and our potential now as compared to any time in the past, I feel keenly, personally, we're really lucky, lucky to be who we are at this point in time.  

[04:05] Jennifer: That's beautiful. So I want to go back a little bit, I was wondering growing up, what were some of the key influences on your life? 

[04:14] Sylvia: I was fortunate to have parents who allowed my brothers and me to have time to read, time to just go outside and explore. 

And I think perhaps one of the most important gifts they gave to us is knowing that they were there for us. I felt as a kid I could never do anything so bad that they wouldn't be there to back me up. 

I tried not to abuse that power, but I just felt that confidence that whatever it is, everything's going to be fine, that they were there. And for me, (in) my mind, they're still there. They're my security blanket. 

[04:55] Jennifer: That's beautiful. And you started diving at what age? You grew up on the coast of Florida, right?  

[05:01] Sylvia: I began diving about the time when it first became possible to use scuba. As an undergraduate, I was fortunate in having a professor who allowed me to join a graduate class. 

It was a small class, eight students, and we had an opportunity to live together at a field station on the water called Alligator Harbor in Florida. (chuckles) We cooked our own meals, we had classes, we had visiting professors who'd come in. 

I mean, what a gift. This little group of students and these heavyweight scientists who wanted to come and have a little break down on the seacoast came and gave us lectures. It was really an extraordinary experience. 

But the best experience was the professor, Harold Humm, somehow managed to get two scuba tanks, two of the first tanks available in the country, in the United States. It was 1953. 

We had two words of instruction after we strapped them on, the tank on, it was (to) breathe naturally, and jump over and then don't hold your breath. Just keep breathing slowly and naturally - at first it seemed impossible. 

I remember my first breath underwater of compressed air - this actual surprise and delight, I can actually do this, I can breathe underwater, it's a miracle. I still kind of feel that way every time I take the plunge with scuba. 

But it was considered at the time too much fun to be taken seriously as a scientist, as a means of exploring. But actually it's become (a) passport into the ocean as a laboratory to be able to be inside the very system that you're observing. 

On the land, people take for granted, you want to study the mountains, you go to the mountains. If you want to be in the desert, you go camp in the desert for a while. And you're not constrained. You want to stay a year, okay. 

Scientists studying life in the sea used nets and hooks and devices, do what oceanographers heretofore have had to do before we had personal access to the sea, below a few feet where you can hold your breath. 

And it's not just that, it’s the technology to be able to see. I mean, even having face masks… The Polynesian divers had a way of being able to catch a bubble of air over each eye, which worked for a certain depth. It made it possible to see more clearly than if you just opened your eyes underwater. 

But face masks, fins, snorkels, simple things that we’re the beneficiaries of these devices. But then scuba and now submarines, and now the ability to at least (go) down to a certain relatively shallow depth, to be able to live underwater. 

But in the future, by doing what you do in a submarine, have one-atmosphere structures, you could essentially go to full ocean depth. (It) might be a little cozy in relatively small quarters. But think about the space station and our willingness to confine ourselves in order to be able to see what you otherwise cannot see. 

To see Earth from space in a little capsule, to be able to live underwater in relatively close quarters, but then to get into a one-atmosphere submersible and be able to cruise around in the ocean. These are within our grasp right now. 

But we have been neglecting technology that can take us meaningfully into the ocean. It's starting, I've again been hooked on the technology.

[08:47] Jennifer: Yes, you founded three companies I understand… 

[08:50] Sylvia: Not because I'm a great entrepreneur, but because I realize you have to make profit in order to stay in business. But to have that other goal, that is the business you create is because you want to make a difference. And that's the focus. 

So I've done it now with three companies, but the one that now my daughter owns and operates with her husband and a group of really great engineers, partly because they share and are driven by the desire to make a difference, to make the ocean accessible. 

I share the view that's been part of my personal journey as a scientist. But as a scientist, I want to go down and deep and there is no means of transportation. So come on, engineers, let's build a submarine. (chuckles)

[09:39] Jennifer: which goes back actually to some of your nicknames, “Sturgeon General” and “Her Deepness” by the New Yorker and the New York Times. 

But I understand that you also grew up at a time during which women scientists were quite rare. I think you were the only female scientist in 1964 (on) the vessel Anton (Bruun)..

[10:00] Sylvia: At a time when ocean scientists who actually went into the ocean were rare. I put aside, although I recognize that it's a real thing about it’s unusual for a woman, it's unusual for anybody to get into a submarine. 

I mean, one of my heroes, Ruth Turner, was at Harvard. She was one of the first women, but one of the first scientists to go out into the deep ocean off Massachusetts and be a witness to life far below where sunlight shines. 

What I suppose even more than being the first to do this or that, as a scientist, work with engineers to develop the technology to be able to go, to create unique technologies that didn't exist before, not as a woman, but as a human being, committed, driven. 

Being a woman, sometimes (it’s) an advantage, mostly not. But occasionally, because you are the only woman, you get noticed and it kind of sets you apart in a group. 

And whether you get noticed for good reasons or bad reasons, you sometimes get chosen because you're there and you stand out. And as long as you can hold your own, it gets you to a different level. I think I was not burdened initially as a woman, I was expected to marry and be supported. I didn't have to make a living, if you will. I would marry somebody who would make the money. 

[11:35] Jennifer: That was in the 50s, right? “Leave it to the Beaver Mom”... 

[11:38] Sylvia: Yeah, that's right, that was normal. What was not normal was to make your own way as a woman financially. So I didn't think about what I have to do to make a living. I wanted to be a scientist. I didn't care, I just figured I'd be an academic. 

You make your own pathway somehow. Everybody does, one way or the other. But I can tell you when somebody says you cannot do that, ask yourself why not. Sometimes the answer is, well, I guess it's gonna be really tough. But sometimes, the only reason is because they say I can't, I say I can. So let me at it. 

[12:18] Jennifer: Well, I also feel like once people tell you that you can't do this, it's based on their own experience. 

[12:24] Sylvia: Exactly. 

[12:25] Jennifer: Or their own fear and insecurity. So it's a reflection of them versus what they think of you. And I used to be like, oh, well, this person said I can't do this, maybe I shouldn't do it. 

[12:38] Sylvia: Sometimes there are actually rules, like going on a ship, women are not allowed. Why? Why not is a question. And there is an answer, because you're not allowed. 

Women astronomers were not allowed to go and use telescopes. I mean, it was because they were women, they were prohibited, not because of their intelligence. 

The mapping of the sea floor by Marie Tharp as a graduate student. She's a geologist, brilliant. But she could not go to sea to gather the information, to analyze the nature of the sea floor. She had to stay behind. 

The guys would go out, brave men being at sea, bring the information back. She did the analysis, but she had the breakthrough concepts that the seafloor is characterized by a range of mountains, like a backbone down the Atlantic Ocean. And it's split in the middle, and the seafloor is spreading gradually, moving outward in both directions from the middle. She was the pioneer who had that concept. 

Later, they let her go to sea, but (chuckles)... It was kind of arbitrary, though, these beliefs that women bring bad luck. But come on, get over it. 

Well, when I first went to sea, it was only after I'd been accepted because they needed a botanist. The man they had had to cancel at the last minute, and I was a graduate student at Duke and a marine botanist at that.

So it was only after I was packed, ready to go, I got this call. You know, you're going to be the only one, and there are 70 men. You have a problem with that? I said, do the men have a problem with that? 

It was breaking the rules a bit, but they just walked into it and then they couldn't back out, because they looked for a botanist, never mind it was a woman. 

And as it turned out, it was fine. But I mean, it really was. I don't know what it is, but I expected no favors. And you have to have a good sense of humor. But I didn't expect guys would open doors or lift my bags. Sometimes they did, but I didn't ask them. And I'd lift their bags - just try to fit in, just do what I was there to do as a scientist. 

And it was one of the best experiences ever for me, getting to do things that I, otherwise… If I hadn't seen how animals are traditionally collected from the ocean using standard techniques of hooks, lines and traps, I'd be missing a big piece of what has driven me to look for alternative ways. 

Because for years, the first great expedition around the world was on the Challenger vessel in England back in (the) late 1800s, 1872-1876, they used all these. They couldn't dive, they couldn't get in the water. They sat warm and dry on the surface. And some oceanographers still do. 

But for me, the ocean is the laboratory, I want to be in the ocean. As a scuba diver, so many times you go down 20 meters, 30 meters, and then you go to the edge of where the terrain just drops off and you're following a fish, and then the fish just keeps going down, down, down. I look at my gauge, I've got to stop, I can't go any deeper. I look at my watch, I’m out of time. 

Overcoming those barriers is part of what has driven me as a scientist to knock on the doors of engineers and say, help, we've got to figure this out. And that's part of my personal journey. I mean, I have friends who are astronauts. I told them how lucky they are - they don't have to start from scratch and build their spacecraft. 

But I had to figure it out working with engineers. I'm not an engineer, although I learned a lot about engineering, about the constraints of materials, about what works and what doesn't. 

But I also know what I want to do. I want to be able to have manipulators that can actually be gentle and not just crush specimens. I want to be able to drive this submersible. It's part of the joy of being able to make choices, the freedom to see a goal and figure out how (I am) going to get from here to there. I can't do it all by myself. Who can join with me? 

Another one of my heroes, Lynn Margulis, challenged the Darwinian theory of progression by competition, survival of the fittest. 

It's become increasingly clear that real progression from the very beginning to the present time comes through cooperation, through collaboration. 

Yes, there's a place, I suppose, for I want to be the best and I'll squash the competition. But that sets us back. 

We're at a level where it's clear we must come together. Nobody can know everything. Nobody can do everything. But if we take what you've got, what I've got, what somebody else over there has.

And it's really the first time we've had enough knowledge. The history of developing the ingredients, the network of technology, we take for granted the investment that others have made in developing languages, numbers, computing capacity. 

It's been the progression of collaboration, of taking knowledge and finding patterns. We've never been better prepared in all of our history to secure an enduring place for ourselves. Or to lose it.

It's going to get harder to secure an enduring future based on protecting the natural web of life that makes our existence possible. But we have not known or respected those limits. We didn't even know there were limits. 

[18:52] Jennifer: Yeah. We didn't have the Planetary Boundaries until a few years ago. 

[18:55] Sylvia: Right now, we do.

There are individuals with the power who can take away the opportunity forever. I mean, we could bomb away the future. We could release toxins that bomb or destroy the future. We can war our way to the end. 

Or we can say 50 years ago, we didn't know enough, 50 years from now it'll be too late. Maybe 10 years, whatever it is, this moment right now is better than the next 10 minutes, the next 10 years. I gotta get it together. 

[19:30] Jennifer: Absolutely, I totally agree with you. I just came back from a trip to the Amazon, a 10-day learning journey with two indigenous tribes.

[19:40] Sylvia: You can see it in the rainforest, this network of collaboration. The trees, the insects, what's going on in the roots. No one individual makes a rainforest. It's a community, they need one another. Give and take, give and take. 

And it's a revelation for humans, right about now. Think about Ed Wilson recognizing the success of humans is largely because we're social creatures and we learn and we share and we progress and we go to war. (chuckles) 

We advance and then we set ourselves back. Do we ever? And the technology for war now is so inconceivably destructive. 

[20:26] Jennifer: Well, what startles me is that, you know, you take years to build something like a physical structure, and it gets destroyed within seconds with the weapons. 

[20:36] Sylvia: Cut a thousand year old tree, or take a hundred year old fish - imagine what that creature's been through. 

[20:43] Jennifer: So, you know, it's interesting because last year I went to Borneo, I went to the rainforest in Borneo and that was fascinating as well, equally fascinating as in the Amazon. 

But when we were spending time on the Kinabatangan River, I realized that (the) river, the bodies of water, is actually what sustains us. I think many of us live in cities and we become so disconnected to the land or to the water. 

[21:09] Sylvia: It's one system. And the glue - microbial systems. We've known about bacteria only in a relatively short piece of human history. How recently did we even know what air is composed of? Or what stars are made of? You just didn't know. That's part of our 21st century gift.

We’re so close to losing it all. Or not, depending on what we do or don't do. 

[21:38] Jennifer: Sylvia, some people view the oceans as vast and indestructible. How do you convey its fragility in a way that resonates with people? 

[21:51] Sylvia: It's the great mystery of the sea. How do you really condense what is known? 

I think the most effective way is to try to spark the incentive to want to go see for yourself, to go realize the immense appeal and importance of the ocean. You can read about it, you can see films. 

I read a book called Half Mile Down by William Beebe when I was a kid and that hooked me on wanting to go see for myself what life is like, where it's dark all the time, because of the words that William Beebe was able to convey. He talked about the galaxies, the stars, the suns, the moon, the life in this world in darkness, these glowing creatures. I just… Maybe my imagination ran away with me, but I wanted to go see these creatures and I wanted to be William Beebe. 

And years later, fast forward in a submarine that I helped design and build, I was where he was at the same depth. Then you think about it, he was making his breakthrough dives with the engineer who worked with him, Otis Barton, to develop what is called the bathysphere. And that was the first time that humans late 1920s, early 30s, and fast forward to the 1980s and we were still kind of stuck at a thousand meters, about half mile down. So good news. Here I was finding my dream was coming true. But we're still mostly stuck on the surface. 

And right now, right now, this is a moment that has never been possible before. We are seeing new technologies being directed for ocean access. It's been slow in coming. It’s like you have people living up in the sky, going to the moon, really putting billions of dollars into going to Mars while neglecting this part of the universe, this planet. 

But right now, I think partly driven by the need to know, partly driven by understanding that the ocean is our life support system and it's in trouble, meaning we're in trouble. So we have to go see and understand the nature of the ocean so we can do a better job of restoring health.

How do we get the plastic out of the ocean? How do we remove the toxins? How do we restore depleted wildlife? Stop killing the whales - that's made a difference. More whales now, more turtles than when I was a child. Coral reefs, they're not all gone, but half of them are.  

The best chance we will ever have to save sharks is to stop killing them now. Because for most, it's like 90% or more (are) gone. But we still have 10%. It's not hopeless. The ocean needs sharks, we need sharks. We need to stop killing them for whatever reason, because our security depends on ocean security. 

[25:10] Jennifer: So, Sylvia, you founded the California-based nonprofit Mission Blue. 

[25:16] Sylvia: Yes. 

[25:17] Jennifer: Hope Spots, I think there's 165 of them now around the world. Can you talk about these Hope Spots that gives me at least hope that we have the possibility, the potential to reverse the degradation that we're doing to the ocean? 

[25:34] Sylvia: Well, it seems so obvious to me long ago that on the land, we needed to safeguard the disappearing wilderness. National parks, some say best idea America ever had. It was a great idea, but it wasn't implemented nearly enough to safeguard the living systems. 

I mean, what we've got we’ve got. But imagine if we hadn't made those efforts early in the 20th century. Early in the 21st century, this idea of protecting the ocean was just kind of getting some traction. 

The first national marine sanctuaries that aren't really protected the way national parks are. You can fish, you can mine, you can do a lot of things. It has a name that says marine sanctuary, but they aren't really protected. In fact, sport fishing is encouraged in the US National Marine Sanctuaries. You don't have sport hunting in National Parks. 

We still have this evolution of looking at ocean life as wildlife to really grasp that reality. So we still have 18th century thinking when it comes to the ocean, but it's starting. The idea that we have to protect areas in the ocean the way we protected the land. And that was the concept that led me to accept the invitation to be Chief Scientist at NOAA (National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration).

I was drawn because there's this little program called National Marine Sanctuary Program. It's $6 million for a relatively small number of places. And I said, this is my chance. Two things - to foster the technology for ocean exploration and to protect the land. 

So when I had the chance winning the TED prize in 2009 to make a wish big enough to change the world, it was so easy for me to articulate this concept. We need to ignite public support for ocean exploration, research, new submarines. But the goal (is) to develop a network of protected areas, Hope Spots, large enough to save and restore the Blue Heart of the Planet, the Ocean. 

And the TEDsters got behind the concept. One person who listened to the TED talk came up afterwards and said, I think I get it - we don't protect the ocean, nothing else matters. And he wrote a check for a million dollars on the spot, gave it to TED to help make the wish come true. 

In the year that followed 2010, we had an expedition at sea inviting about 100 movers and shakers. It's really an exhilarating experience to bring in people who wanted to help. What do you do to safeguard the Blue Heart of the Planet? 

And that's when Mission Blue really got started. To have an organization that would implement, through whatever means, igniting champions around the world, inviting them to nominate places. 

But they have to say not only why a place that they could see needed help, but what they were going to do, whether it's an individual, community, an institution, or some combination. That's how the Hope Spot concept has gotten traction. 

Today, I think of them (as) enduring places with champions. They're like field stations, they're like access to places in the sea with inspired individuals and communities who are committed on a journey. 

Wherever a place is, whether it's in great shape, got to keep it that way, or it's kind of in trouble, like San Francisco Bay is not exactly what it was, but it can be made better than it is. 

And look around the world, look at Shinnecock Bay, not exactly beautifully intact system. In fact, the story is so great to be able to show that you can make a difference. It's taken about 10 years from where Shinnecock Bay, right there in the shadow of a big city, New York City. 

But Shinnecock Nation, native people, actually had ownership of much of the water, of the land around the bay and the bay itself. An individual scientist, Ellen Pickett and the university, in this case Stony Brook. 

It was actually before it became a Hope Spot. 

There was this coalition that ultimately came to involve the Explorers Club in New York to nominate a Hope Spot. But they had already invested in restoring clams that once, this was clam central. 

There were so many clams that clams were captured and shipped all over the United States. Really small area, but a lot of clams. Until they essentially took them all. You know, it's like the tree, what they call the Lorax. They took all the trees, all that was left was one seed.  

It wasn't quite as bad as one clam, but the industry closed because it was not profitable anymore. And it used to be a true source of food for the Shinnecock Nation and the people who moved in over the years. 

But then they commercialized it and they destroyed it. I mean, they took them all. We know how to kill, but we also are experts when we know we can care and give back. And it happened in Shinnecock Bay. 

It had become just atrocious brown tides - the table had been set. They take away the filter feeders (clams). The seagrasses die because the water gets so thick with one or two exuberant forms of plankton that “our time has come, we've got all this fertilizer coming in, there's nobody here to diminish our populations.” 

So they just turned the water brown and light could not get through, seagrasses died. And when the seagrasses died, the scallops died, and it just became a very unhealthy system. But few clams managed to continue to thrive, no matter what, really hardy individuals. 

But it was this collaboration with the Shinnecock Nation, Stony Brook, and Ellen, they did a calculation of how many clams it would take to filter enough of the brown tides to clean up the bay so that light could get through. 

And they made this calculation of how many millions of clams it would take and what it would cost. And the cost of big mama and papa clams on the market was about $1 per clam. And they figured it would take at least $33 million to restore the bay. 

They didn't have $33 million, but they cobbled together what they could. They got the biggest, fattest mama and papa clams they could find and put them back in the bay in the place where they looked like they might be given a chance. 

And they made sure that this was protected and they let them reproduce. That's how they got to enough clams to start bringing health back to the bay, filter the plankton to the stage that it could really allow the seagrasses to start to come back. 

And they have come back, taking 10 years. But it's not the way it was a hundred years or a thousand years ago, but it is so much better. It's on a journey to recovery. 

And they're almost at the point, where with caution and real care, they might take a few clams to eat. But realizing every clam they take out of the system means fewer little clams coming on to the next generation. 

So this is a work in progress, but it's an example that we can make a difference, we surely can. Look at what's happened. We've taken half of life from the land and the sea, of the wildlife. Look at the decline of butterflies, of birds, of mammals, the extinctions that have happened on our watch because of us, either killing the animals directly or destroying their habitat. And it's happening in the ocean as well. 

But we have a chance because now we know, not only that it's happening, but that we can intervene. We can't plant everything back in the ocean to recover, but what we can do is stop the killing in broad areas of the ocean. 

There is this 30x30 quests, land and sea. That's not the goal. That's a milestone within the next six years, can we bring ourselves to stop the killing on 30% of the land and sea? That is restoration of the Green and Blue Heart of the Planet. 

But it isn't enough to secure our future, we have to do better. We have to think of 100% of it as a life support system and figure it out. The best answer we have right now is (to) identify those places that are still in great shape. They're diminishing every day. 

Draw the line. Why would we even think about deep sea mining, for example? They're still in good shape. Why would we think it's a good idea to trash them for a few little fragments of what that whole ecosystem is about? And somehow we have to create enough momentum by people who care about the future as well as the present to avoid further destruction of wild places and wildlife. 

And then secondly, restore what we can. Plant the oysters, plant the clams, plant the trees. Do your best, but first of all, save what remains of those things, those places, those species. With all the money in the world, we don't know how to put them back together again. 

[36:01] Jennifer: So, Sylvia, I asked a question to Jane Goodall, and I'm curious to actually ask you a very similar question. I asked her after having observed the chimpanzees, one of our closest relatives, for over six decades, what did she learn about humanity? 

So I was wondering if I could ask you a similar question that having observed the plants and animals that live under the sea, what have you learned about humanity? 

[36:32] Sylvia: Well, as I said, we are the apex predator of all apex predators. We consume not just what we can physically catch with our bare hands or with small tools. 

But think about sharks, they just go with what they've got. We think of them as top predators, or lions and tigers don't use spears and arrows and guns and things. 

Our ability to destroy is unprecedented. But it is coupled with something that is special about humans. We do have the capacity to feel compassion. We can feel empathy. It's the best hope for our continued existence. 

If we prioritize caring over killing, we'll get there. But as long as we're in this mode of destroying, using weapons that can annihilate not just other humans, but the Earth itself. But we're doing it deliberately and with subsidies in the ocean - industrial fishing. 

We're doing it with our eyes wide open. And it's a mystery to me that we can't see beyond what we think of as wealth when it's not really wealth at all. 

And I guess the jury is still out. Even in my own mind, I'm a human. I like being a human. I love being a human. I can fly in the sky. I go to the depths of the ocean. I can do what no bird, no whale, no other creature has ever done.

This extraordinary power. Can we have the power of restraint, of channeling our power into caring for the Earth and caring for one another that can take us into a long and prosperous future? It's a question that still hangs right now. Never before has it been more vivid, the choice we have. 

I went to the conference in Rio. Rio+20 (officially the United Nations Conference on Sustainable Development in 2012). The headline - what is the future we want? That's still the headline. We have a choice, but we're not going to have a choice much longer. And that will determine who (we are). 

[38:47] Jennifer: How much time do we have, Sylvia, how much time, in your estimate? 

[38:50] Sylvia: Sitting in the office, lofty place in Washington D.C. As the Chief Scientist of NOAA and seeing these big issues coming into focus, like El Nino, we had all the pieces of the puzzle, but finally it came together. 

El Nino is not a phenomenon limited to the west coast of South America, where it was known there are these shifts in temperature (of the) Ocean that has great consequences. It's a global phenomenon. What happens in the Pacific influences the Atlantic, the whole world. What happens in the Indian Ocean affects all of us. 

And I was in a position with satellite technology, with computer technology, with the ability to make those connections. It just struck me that it was the best, and we're talking 1990. We've got the best chance we will ever have to secure a place for ourselves within the natural systems that make our existence possible. I mean, I already had this nerdy background with universities and learning from some of the best minds out there soaking it up. 

But within the context of being in that office where it was a weather service, a satellite service, fisheries, and ocean research, atmospheric research, it was really a great education that made me think. So I said the next 10 years will be the most important in the next 10,000 years because we are on a journey that is taking us in a not very good place. 

And I think I was right that 10 year window, if we had started in 1990, in that decade before the beginning of what we call now the 21st century, so much more could have been done to safeguard our future. But we have what we have. 

And Johann Rockstrom and his team of really nerdy scientists, he really crunched the numbers in ways I never could and have come up with Planetary Boundaries. We are so close to losing it, or not, depending on what we choose to do or not. This is our maybe last best chance. 

I'll never give up on the thought that we can somehow make it. But it's going to get harder and harder because of our lack of action to do what we know is the right thing to do if we want an enduring future. 

And I have had conversations with the most perverse human beings, they say, look, I made my way, the kids can figure it out. I'm going to enjoy my life. I won't be here to see the devastation, but the kids will figure it out. Things I worried about as a kid, some of them happened, some of them didn't. But whatever it is, I'm just going to enjoy my time. That's all that matters to them. 

And it is so incredibly inhumane, non-human. We do care about our future for the kids. And if you really have your head on right, you respect those who've come before. We're the beneficiaries of language, of culture, of music, of art, of all the things, the scientific discoveries. 

We don't have to start from scratch with every baby who comes along. That is our edge, our social gift, that we learn things, pass it along. We are a part of this continuity. It's what we should be celebrating. When you think when I'm gone, what's left? What's left is what you leave. And that what you give back to society, that you have done your bit to keep culture, civilization, humankind continuing. 

That if it matters to you might be remembered with affection, people might care that you exist. For some people, that matters. It obviously matters. For those who put names on buildings or airplanes or clothing or whatever, it's me, I want me to be recognized.

The best way is to have a legacy that lives on in a positive way, whether it's your name in lights or just the satisfaction (of) your children and your grandkids and kids everywhere. Your influence is positive. You've done your bit, you've written a poem, you have a piece of music that endures. You've made a discovery, or you have educated a kid, or you have given back, you've saved... 

You've taken an empty field that's gone, that has been trashed, and you plant trees, or even a tree. You've made a difference. You've dug up your lawn, and planted the garden. You planted wildflowers, you've brought back the bees. 

[43:48] Jennifer: become vegan, like you. (chuckles) 

[43:51] Sylvia: Absolutely. I mean, really. You make your touch as light as possible. You give back as much as you can and you feel empowered because you have a choice and you've chosen to give back. And that's your power. 

[44:03] Jennifer: That's beautiful, Sylvia. We do have some rapid fire questions that you can answer. I think you'll really love this. 

[44:10] Sylvia: What did Jane say, by the way? Does she have hope for humans? 

[44:13] Jennifer: She said only when both our heart and our mind work in harmony can we reach the true human potential. 

[44:20] Sylvia: Empathy... 

[44:21] Jennifer: Yeah, it's empathy. Okay, some rapid fire questions - your favorite dive spot? 

[44:28] Sylvia: The Ocean. 

[44:30] Jennifer: Name a place, come on. 

[44:32] Sylvia: It's the ocean. It's one place. It's deep and wide and it's beautiful - any place is my favorite place, any place 50 years ago. 

[44:40] Jennifer: Any place 50 years ago! I love that. Okay, that actually segues really well into the next question. You've spent thousands of hours underwater, what is the most significant change that you've seen over the decades? 

[44:56] Sylvia: Most significant change is restoration, recovery of whales, turtles, coral reefs, seagrasses, kelp forests, mangroves. When we treat them with respect, take the pressure off, they can recover. 

[45:17] Jennifer: Right, just like what happened during COVID in 2020. 

If you had the power to implement one global policy tomorrow to protect the ocean, what would it be? 

[45:25] Sylvia: I would protect the High Seas, top to bottom. It's the global commons. 

A few companies, a few countries are disproportionately destroying life. Taking from our life support system on a scale that is harming everyone everywhere. Maybe it's done with good intentions - to feed people, to feed limitless appetite for life from the sea, to be used as products, not just for food, but grinding up krill from Antarctica, to take squid, I mean magical squid, (without) any sensitivity whatsoever to who they are. 

Or tuna, these magnificent creatures, to get them down to such a low level, they may not recover from the current, onslaught of extraction. I mean, just stop industrial killing from the ocean in the High Seas. I can say that would be my highest priority because first of all, it's within our grasp. 

We have the High Seas Treaty right now that provides for at least 30% land and sea. But beyond that, just let's cause it. What are we protecting the ocean from? Us, from the extraction of wildlife, from deep sea mining. 

So why not give it back to the people? All people, not just a little subset, but rather this area. It's nearly half of the world. It's the best thing that could possibly happen right now. Quickest, least painful to those invested to just give the ocean a break - hit the pause button. 

[47:17] Jennifer: You've inspired countless people. I've had people on this show that have told me that you are their idol, basically. Who has inspired you most in your journey, Sylvia? 

[47:28] Sylvia: First of all, I guess it's the Ocean, Nature inspires me. 

But among humans, of course, my parents and my mother especially, who had this gift of empathy, treated others as she would like to be treated. Many of the great religions have that as a fundamental 

thinking about humans, but it applies to birds and trees, fish. Treat them the way you'd like to be treated, with dignity and respect. 

William Beebe with his book, inspired me. I never met him, but he was one of my mentors. And sure. Rachel Carson. Yes. Jacques Cousteau. Eugenie Clark, who was a young woman scientist who did the most extraordinary things in the 1950s. 

When I think it was unusual for me as a woman to do some of the things that I've managed to get away with, she traveled by herself as a woman in her 20s, to go study fish in Palau and other parts. 

[48:33] Jennifer: Another place I really want to go visit. 

[48:34] Sylvia: You must, yes, you must. It's a Hope Spot, it’s one of the first Hope Spots, so magical, it’s so beautiful. 

But think about it as it was during the war, when bombs were blasting away. And it has bounced back because they've stopped dropping bombs. If we continued doing it would be as trashed as some other parts of the world are today. Gotta stop that, so stupid. 

And I have to say I'm inspired every time I see a kid jump in the water, especially my own kids and my grandkids. It's just the delight of seeing others discover. And I discover it in myself every time. It's always new, it’s always, ah, this is where I belong. 

[49:19] Jennifer: Sylvia, are you still diving, by the way? 

[49:22] Sylvia: Still breathing, so of course. 

[49:27] Jennifer: (chuckles) Never mind for that question. 

[49:28] Sylvia: But yes, I mean, already this year, and more to come soon. Yeah, we've got lots of plans for this year. 

It's a great thing about diving versus some other ways that engage your body like skiing. But in the ocean, it's a very forgiving environment. You can go and exert not very much energy if you wish. I love to go sit underwater,

I actually spent the night in a little submarine all by myself off the coast of Mexico. Went in at sunset, came out at sunrise. Just to sit there and watch what happens at night on our coral reef. 

It wasn't that deep. It was about 100 plus feet. I'd have a 20 minute passport if I went in and out from the surface. But being able to stay there, get to see that fish, that moray eel, that group of squid that came in like a little squadron, came in, circled around in the light, then I turned out the lights and then they disappeared. I turned them on. Oh, there they are. It's just magical. 

But people do it in the woods, mountains, all the time. But the privilege of being able to do underwater, everybody should have that experience if they want to. And I intend to continue, especially submarines, like getting into a car. 

[50:52] Jennifer: (chuckles) I think you're the only person who compared that to a car.

[50:53] Sylvia: It's one atmosphere. You just get in and go along for the ride. 

[51:01] Jennifer: I have two more questions, just really quick ones. What advice would you give to young people who want to follow in your footsteps? Because we have a lot of young people here. 

[51:09] Sylvia: Go for it. If people say you cannot, ask why not? And then go for it. Don't let anyone steal your dream. 

[51:17] Jennifer: Last question - how can people best support ocean conservation efforts in their daily lives? 

[51:24] Sylvia: Know what the problems are, first, and I can tell you what they are. I've already given some clues. And then look at what you have the power to do. Realize when you eat life from the sea, that's somebody, it's wildlife. And ask, would I eat a songbird? Sometimes the answer would be, why not? 

But get up to speed with the nature of the problems, then find your place in solving them. Nobody can do it all, but everyone can do something. And some have more power than others. But everyone times 8 billion, really that's what it will take to make this shift. 

It won't take all 8 billion - we need to get that critical mass of people who care, who will create this, making it fashionable to care, to make it cool, to do the right thing, to celebrate caring instead of what we're doing now, we celebrate killing. 

And we start when you're a little kid. Look at this gun, look at this. Let's play war with this game. Let's go conquer something. 

Let's go fishing. I mean, come on, go out with a camera, let's go out with the binoculars. Let's go take a walk, let's go ask some questions. 

[52:43] Jennifer: Let's go sit on the ocean floor and sleep. (chuckles)

[52:47] Sylvia: Yeah, there you go. 

[52:48] Jennifer: Thank you so much. Sylvia, thank you so much for your time today. I hope you will enjoy this summit. 

[52:54] Sylvia: I am. 

[52:55] Jennifer: It's great. And I hope that you'll come back year after year after year. 

[52:59] Sylvia: I hope so, too, it’s great, really special. Because it's large enough to get a really good mix, and long enough. 

You could say you're stuck here. No, you're here because you want to be here, you don't want to miss anything. Just have a chance to share ideas, let them sink in and then come back. 

There's a climate connection that we didn't have on the balance sheet until right about now. But now we can see and we have the story that can be told and the end point - can we bring health back to the ocean with the same narrative? 

[53:34] Jennifer: Hopefully we can. I know in your book you said “Armed with knowledge, we can choose wisely. Or not.”

[53:41] Sylvia: It's a choice. 

[53:42] Jennifer: Yeah, it's a choice.

[53:43] Sylvia: Love it. 

[53:44] Jennifer: Thank you so much. 

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As always, you can find us on Apple, Amazon and Spotify, as well as social media and our website at TheFounderSpirit.com. 

The Founder Spirit podcast is a partner of the Villars Institute, a nonprofit foundation focused on accelerating the transition to a net-zero (and nature-positive) economy and restoring planetary health. 

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