‍[00:02] Jennifer: Hi, everyone thanks for listening to the Founder Spirit Podcast. I'm your host, Jennifer Wu. In this podcast series, I interview exceptional individuals from all over the world with the founder Spirit, ranging from social entrepreneurs, tech founders, to philanthropists, elite athletes, and more. Together, we'll uncover not only how they manage to succeed in face of multiple challenges, but also who they are as people and their human story.

The following episode was recorded during the Villars Summit. The Founder Spirit Podcast is proud to be a partner of the Villars Institute, a nonprofit foundation focused on accelerating the transition to a net-zero (and nature-positive) economy and restoring planetary health.

“we embed people and planet in our companies and we treat people like human beings rather than numbers on a spreadsheet and realize that we're building our wealth off the back of nature and that we need to then make sure that we're taking care of nature is becoming more and more relevant in the world right now.”

“Ever since I saw that model of the Planetary Boundaries, of the nine boundaries, it's just such a clear framework of how we can really collaborate and organize as human beings.” 

“One thing is bridging divides, finding people that unsettle you, but the other thing is also surrounding yourself with people that will help you keep your resilience and having a circle of friends around you that you can run with, and those deep connections that help you keep strong and healthy and keep on going.” 

And joining us today is Jean Oelwang, a Collaborations Architect and the Founding CEO of Virgin Unite and Planetary Guardians. Over the last 20 years, she has worked with partners around the world to lead the incubation of several global initiatives, including The Elders, The B Team, The Carbon War Room, Ocean Unite, Generations Unite, and many more.

Jean spent seventeen years helping lead mobile companies on six continents prior to becoming the joint CEO of Virgin Mobile in Australia. 

Author of the book Partnering, she co-founded the not-for-profit Plus Wonder to spark more meaningful deep connections and collaborations in the world. 

Jean, welcome to the Founder Spirit Podcast - we're recording live from Villars Summit 2025. Thank you for joining us today.

[02:31] Jean: Thank you, Jennifer, for having me. It's a delight, it’s a magic place. 

[02:34] Jennifer: Thank you, Jean. I always start my podcast with the same question - I like to ask people growing up as a child, what were the formative experiences (in) their lives?

[02:45] Jean: Yeah, I had some of the most wonderful parents in the world. And we grew up on the water, so the ocean was deeply formative for me. 

I remember as a little girl, just exploring in the sand and the waves and also the seagrass. And I remember also being obsessed with a creature that was on the beach where we lived, and it was the horseshoe crab. And at the time when I was a little girl, I didn't realize how intersected our lives are with a horseshoe crab.

And then as I grew up, I got more and more excited and interested as I learned that the horseshoe crab has touched all of our lives because of its blue blood that they use to test any devices or antibiotics that go into our body to see if it has a reaction. And so it's really impacted every human being. 

I think that was such a formative experience as a child because I looked at these things as these incredible dinosaurs that had these incredible helmets and ran around the sand. And then as an adult, they've shaped so much of my thinking about how interconnected the world and that we are with nature, and how we take nature for granted. I grew up all those years with them, and I didn't know that story till I was an adult.

[03:54] Jennifer: So fast forward, you have a background in telecom, you worked and lived in six continents in South Africa, Colombia, Bulgaria, Singapore, Australia. I know I'm forgetting a few (chuckles) - and America, I think. Can you tell us a bit about what it was like to work and live in such a diverse environment across so many continents and different places?

[04:19] Jean: Yeah, and I feel so blessed that I had the chance to do that. And I guess one of the most important things out of that whole experience is that I have friends all over the world that I treasure that are like my family.

And what was interesting was in moving around that much, I think I realized more the commonalities that we have as human beings rather than our differences, because obviously all those places were different languages, different cultures, but the same kind of underlying commonalities about wanting to be loved, wanting to spend time vested with your family, with nature, kindness, like, throughout all of those different cultures was just amazing to see that through line. 

And I think often we focus so much on our differences, especially right now in the world, yet we're so similar. And I think humans ultimately want the same things in life and they want a future for their children. And so that was a beautiful through line in all those places. 

But the other thing that was just fascinating is also learning, like, different rituals in the different countries and learning how people celebrate, how they have conversations. And those types of things were actually very different from culture to culture. 

And so that was just glorious to learn how people not just live their life, but how they're human, like how they connect with one another. 

And I remember the first time sitting in a meeting in Bulgaria, and people were very reserved there. And it took a while to actually deepen that relationship. But once you deepen that relationship, there's still some of the deepest friendships that I have in the world.

And I'll never forget the first meeting I was in, everyone was shaking their heads up and down, and I'm thinking, oh, my God, they're all agreeing with what I'm saying. This is brilliant. 

And then I got out of the meeting and I learned that actually up and down in your head is no, and back and forth is yes. So it was one of those cultural moments of realizing that I was reading body language completely wrong.

[06:08] Jennifer: So it's like in India actually. 

[06:11] Jean: Yeah, it's going back and forth.

[06:12] Jennifer: It's funny because in China, when they say it's interesting, it means it's not interesting. (chuckles) And somebody else just told me, like, when they say, I'll try to do my best, that means they're not going to do anything. 

[06:24] Jean: I think that was similar in Hong Kong, actually, I remember interesting was not a good (word)...

[06:29] Jennifer: Right, right… Interesting is like, because they have nothing else more interesting to say.

[06:30] Jean: and they don't want to be rude. That's the other thing is the cultural norm of not wanting to be rude to someone. 

In another country, like South Africa, they’re so blunt. It was a very interesting experience there just to be in a culture that was very  (direct)... they said exactly what they thought. And so it was a different environment.

[06:49] Jennifer: So Jean, you started your career in telecom, and then eventually you ended up in Australia as the CEO of Virgin Mobile, joint CEO. And it's from there, I understand that you helped to found Virgin Unite with Richard Branson and that was 2003, over 20 years ago now.

So tell us the founding story.

[07:12] Jean: Yeah, and I think the founding story even goes back further because it's interesting. When I started in telco, everyone was like, you have to stay in telco and this has to be the path in your career and you're going to work your way up. 

And I took three disruptive detours that I think led me to helping to found (Virgin) Unite back 20 years ago. And one of them was, I quit my job in telco for a while and went to work in a homeless shelter for teenagers in Chicago. And for me, that was a really huge shift in my head because I was like, oh, my God, we're letting thousands of teenagers live on the street. 

And how is our government system, our corporate system, all these systems, letting these kids down? And so it was a really important moment for me to think about a systems shift. Like how do we change the way those sectors all work together? 

And then probably the other disruptive detour is then going to work in these different countries rather than staying in one location. Then one was in South Africa when we were starting a mobile phone company there. 

I'll never forget that within the first month we ended up making our entire annual target and going down into the township and seeing how people were using phones to start businesses - that kind of entrepreneurial shift. And so it was this beautiful moment of, wow, the power of business to drive change is enormous.

And then I think the last disruptive detour I did was I left the corporate sector again to go in to work for the National Parks and Wildlife in Australia. And I was there, and I remember we were working with bringing corporates together to help protect national parks. And that's when I got the call from Virgin to help them set up this mobile phone company in Australia. 

So by this time, I had already been thinking about how you change our underlying systems so that we collaborate in a different way as human beings. And I remember being in a car with Richard (Branson) because he was on my board in Australia, and I remember him talking to someone on the phone and he was saying, you know, I really want to figure out how we get the businesses across the Virgin Group to have more impact, and I want to start a foundation. 

And so I went home that night and typed up a plan and I emailed it to him. And then he called me the next day and he said, let's do it. So that was almost 22 years ago. Yeah, and that was kind of the genesis of the foundation. He had already been doing tons of stuff before, so this was just starting to pull together the strands so that we would have more impact overall.

[09:30] Jennifer: So there's another initiative that he founded or another nonprofit called The B Team, and that's also to advocate business practice that's centered on humanity and the climate. This was founded, I think, 10 years after Virgin Unite in 2012. 

So now that looking back, you've been operating and running Virgin Unite for over 20 years, and then the B Team, which you also advise now for over 10 years. Do you see the business practice shifting towards centered more towards humanity and nature?

[10:04] Jean: Yeah. This is a very good question and a really important question and not an easy one to answer, because I feel like the momentum to make sure that we embed people and planet in our companies and we treat people like human beings rather than numbers on a spreadsheet and realize that we're building our wealth off the back of nature and that we need to then make sure that we're taking care of nature is becoming more and more relevant in the world right now. 

And there's some amazing companies that have put that at the very center, like Ray Anderson at Interface in the very early years, but also like Jesper Brodin and what he's doing at Ikea is just simply extraordinary. Or what Paul Polman did at Unilever.

So I think we're in a really interesting position where 10 years ago perhaps we didn't have those big beacons. And I feel like we have lots of good beacons that are showing us that putting people and planet at the center is actually good for your bottom line, good for the people that work for you, as well as protecting your future supply chain from a nature perspective. 

So I feel like that awareness is there in the world right now. I think that it's stopped by a couple things. There's a barrier put in front of it because we still are so short-term focused.

And so even if a CEO and a leadership team want to drive that change, they're often stopped because of short-term profitability. And so I feel like one aspect of what we need to shift is the board structure so that the incentive structures that go through companies are rewarding people to do the right thing because right now we're actually rewarding people to do the opposite.

So I think that's one thing that's stopping it. I think right now in the world too, where as our politics are changing and as people are starting to reflect on what businesses are doing and calling it Woke or calling… 

You know, a business leader said to me the other day, he's like, I just wish we'd get rid of all these acronyms, all this other language that's combative. Because ultimately, all I want to do is do the right thing for my people, take care of them from my heart, and do the right thing by the planet - that's what I want to do. And he was talking about how he's getting attacked from all sides right now, no matter what direction he goes in. 

So I think we need a big shift in the world to get people to realize that this isn't about politics, it’s about doing the right thing for people. And that's going to do the right thing for (the) company.

And that's how my boss Richard (Branson) has built Virgin from the beginning - he's focused on doing what's right for his people. And that's created successful businesses.

[12:32] Jennifer: Peter Drucker had a saying that culture eats strategy for breakfast. And culture is really focused on the people, building the team, and having the right people in place. And it's so intangible. 

But ultimately, if you build an organization with a certain culture, that culture will attract then the similar kind of people. Good cultures will attract certain type of people, and then you have certain toxic cultures that attract some people that you don't want. 

I find that concept of culture so interesting because it is so intangible, it's not really reflected in any of the company's KPIs. It's really hard to measure. I mean, you can measure employee satisfaction, but it's not necessarily the culture. 

But I find that if you have this philosophy to build a company based on people, then you can really motivate them. You can lead them to all go in the same direction, or vice versa. You know, some companies don't succeed because they don't have the right culture in place. So fascinating. 

One of the things that I did want to ask you is, what is Richard Branson like? (chuckles) Perfect segue.

[13:47] Jean: I'll go to him in a second. But one thing just to reflect on your important comments just now is it's interesting, isn't it? It's not tangible in the things that we use to measure success in our businesses, but it is tangible like if you walk into a company, you can almost feel within a minute whether that culture is a positive culture or not. 

And study after study has been done to show that if you have a positive culture in a place that really takes care of people, you're going to have a higher level of retention, you're going to be better for your customers. The list goes on and on from a profitability perspective. 

So I think you're spot on that we need to change how we measure things and what we measure to make sure that we're successful as businesses. I think we're measuring often the wrong things and putting pressure and incentives in the wrong place.

And I think some of the cultures that are really beautiful right now that are starting... I don't know if you've seen the stuff that Peter Stavros is doing with KKR - he's focused on 30 of his portfolio companies (that) have new ownership models like shared ownership, employee ownership models that they're testing. And that's a really interesting shift in the incentive structure because it puts the power back in the employees hands. 

So Richard Branson. I think he's the king of culture in terms of how he builds businesses and how he puts humanity at the center. And so it has been amazing working with him. I've worked with him now for coming. It's 25 years actually last month, which has been a long time, both in the commercial side and then the foundation side. 

And I've learned a ton from him. I'll never forget the first lesson that I learned from him was when we were starting that mobile company in Australia. So as a leadership team, we'd launched the business and we were all excited. We had this big launch. Then we went into the office because we were supposed to have a board meeting with him. 

And so we're up at the board table and we're all hanging out. We're like, where's Richard? Nowhere to be seen. And so we're searching like where's Waldo? Where is he? And so we're searching every floor. 

And then we found him in the customer service center with headphones on, with his notebook. So he sat there, listened to everything that the customers were saying and (what) the customer service reps were saying. Then he came back up into the boardroom and he had a list of 30 things we needed to change. 

And it was a very important first lesson for me about who you listen to in a company and make sure you hear their voice on how you shape your business. So one thing is just listening and listening to the right people and listening to the ones that you're going to learn from on the front lines as some of the most important people.

The other thing about him is (that) he takes a ton of risk. I think we balance each other really well because he is so far out there on the risk scale. And I'm probably more (on) the scale of how do you think things through, how do you shape a project, how do you form it? 

And so I think over the years in the foundation, we've actually been a really good match because he's pushed me way out of my comfort zone of thinking that anything's possible. I really believe that in my heart now. And that's from learning from him and watching him take those risks. 

And I think for him, he probably understands a bit more about why you need to just make sure. Because, you know, over the years, we've made mistakes of why you need to take that time to really look at things. And before you get launched and saying all that, sometimes we just go anyway. He's such an entrepreneur, you know, it's just extraordinary to watch him.

And then I think the other thing that I guess I have learned from him over the years is just his deep kindness and his deep interest and curiosity in people. He really has authentic curiosity in people and really wants to sit and listen to their story and figure out what he can learn from that person. So he has this unbelievable sense of curiosity that's wrapped in kindness. And I don't think you find that in very many people. 

And I guess the other thing is just (that) he's so happy right now to be a grandfather and to be with his grandkids. And to watch him with his family is just extraordinary. His wife is just one of the most lovely humans, and his children, Holly and Sam. And just seeing how he still manages, even though he's running this massive company, to make time for his family and to really put that at the center of his universe. 

He talks a lot about circles and that you put yourself in the center of the circle to make sure that you're healthy, and then you put your family in that next circle, and then you push in your next circle the friends that you have in your life that are like family, and then that next circle, the people that work for you and the companies that are like your family. 

And then in the next circle, your partners. And then that wider circle is the planet. And so that you're making sure that you're taking care of all of those aspects. And community actually was before planet, the communities that you operate in.

But I think it's just a lovely mental model to think about how you build relationships across all kinds of dimensions of your life.

[18:27] Jennifer: Right. So speaking of relationships, you wrote a book called Partnering:  Forging the Deep Connections that Make Great Things Happen. So what are some of the key lessons that are coming from writing this book?

[18:41] Jean: Yeah, maybe before that. Why do you love Richard?

[18:47] Jennifer: Well, my husband's not here, so.. (chuckles) No, I think he's just a great entrepreneur, so it's great to hear from someone like you who knows him personally. 

And I'm an entrepreneur myself, so I always have admiration for other entrepreneurs. And I think that there's entrepreneurs and then there's some superhumans. And I think he's kind of in that category of superhumans. They all have just boundless energy, and somehow fear doesn't stop them ever.

And it's always looking forward, not looking backward - always striving, just moving. And that the concept of failure is not a bad thing - it's what enables you to learn in the next iteration. So that's the thing that kind of fascinates me about him.

[19:34] Jean: I think that's a really important insight you have. Like if you ask him about his failures, he doesn't remember his failures. He deals with him in the moment, learns from them, and then lets them go. He doesn't hold onto them. And I think so many people in the world hold onto that negative space of a failure, and then they don't let themselves move forward. 

And I think you're spot on - just example of letting that go and then moving on.

[19:57] Jennifer: Yeah. I think that's a critical skill, especially when you're entrepreneur, because you just don't have time to dwell in the past, you should always be focused on how to learn from your mistakes and how you can do it better and then how to go from the situation that you're in, even if it's a failed situation. Like, how do you move beyond that? 

I think that's a skill set most people don't have. And frankly, they don't teach that in school - they don't really teach you some of the life skills that we really need.

[2025] Jean: Yeah. And I think also what he is very good at, that they don't teach us too, is that it's okay to stop something and let it go if it's a failure. 

Because being at Villars right now, thinking about the planet and how we've approached the planetary crisis, because I think sometimes we just continue on a path and we don't stop to reflect that that path is not working. 

And I think now is a moment in history where we really need to reflect and have it be okay to say we failed and that we failed at this and this and that we need to do better and take a different path forward. But I think sometimes as humans, we unfortunately stay in that comfort zone, which could be a failed path. So something I'm reflecting on a lot in the last few days.

On relationships…  (chuckles)

[20:53] Jennifer: partnerships. 

[20:54] Jean: So, yeah, I'm obsessed with partnerships and collaborations because as human beings, our world's got so complex right now, and we're so interconnected, and the only way we're going to get to a better world, and I really believe that there's a much better world ahead of us, is that if we collaborate at a scale we can't even begin to imagine yet. 

So I started this journey 15 years ago, but I started it more because I wanted to learn about romantic relationships, actually. And so I started interviewing people that had long romantic relationships that had helped them become the best version of themselves. 

And then I interviewed Ben and Jerry, and the whole thing changed because I realized that the same things that I was seeing in the other partnerships, like President Carter and Rosalynn or Archbishop Tutu and Leah, were common in Ben and Jerry's relationship. So it changed the entire perspective of the project. 

And we ended up interviewing about 65 partnerships that had two things in common - longevity and they used their partnership to make the world a better place. And they were partnerships of all kinds, like business, government, scientists, romantic friends, family members. 

And what was beautiful, Jennifer, is I started to see these commonalities, and so I started to code them all. My husband's probably about to kill me because all of our walls were just covered with stickies and those big white charts. 

But out of that, we ended up coming up with something called the six degrees of connection on how these people built these deep connections in their lives. And they were common across all.

They all had something bigger in their lives that lifted them above their partnership. So if they got in some kind of conflict, that something bigger would lift them to make them remember that it wasn't about the nitty gritty conflict they were having. Like Ben and Jerry didn't start an ice cream company - they started a company to change the world. And then they had.

The second degree came from Ben and Jerry, because I said, how on earth did you make Ben and Jerry's a success? And they just giggled and said, were all in with each other. We 100% had each other's back. 

And then some of the other degrees were things like these six values that people had that were common across all partnerships. And probably two that I didn't expect to come out were… One was what we ended up calling magnetic moments. So those rituals, those practices that you embed in your partnerships to stay connected. And then the tools to lift you above friction, because friction is inevitable in any partnership. 

And then the last one was how you then take these deep connections and ladder them up to larger collaboration, so collective connections. But yeah, so that was the framework, but lots of other insights beyond that were just amazing to learn from these people.

[23:40] Jennifer: So I think three years ago, I read the book about the founding story of Ben and Jerry.

It's very interesting. Yeah. So my former CEO grew up in Burlington, Vermont, and one of his dad's best friend was the first CEO of Ben and Jerry's. And I think he wrote a book about the story. It's fascinating, actually, it really is. 

I forgot if it is like Ben or Jerry, but one of them didn't know how to make ice cream. (chuckles)

[24:11] Jean: And they were. I think they were working out of a garage. But it's interesting because they had community engagement right from the beginning because they used their parking lot to have, like, films, do you remember? Like drive-in films.

 And they're so radically different. This is the other interesting… They're very different. Every one of these partnerships almost had this, what I ended up calling the electric current of difference that made their partnership work. 

Because one was definitely like, Jerry's an ops guy and Ben's the big thinker, but they're so clear that they need each other. And I have to say that I've never heard the word love mentioned so much in an interview in my life. It was like a three hour interview because we were laughing so hard. It was just like every other word out of their mouth made me laugh. 

They talked so much about how they loved each other. And, you very rarely hear that from business leaders, that kind of center point of love. It's always just stuck in my head about how they weren't frightened about using that word.

[25:05] Jennifer: Well, if you build companies together that lasted 40-50-60 years, you kind of like a married couple.

[25:12] Jean: Yeah, that's what they said, they talked a lot about how they knew more about each other than Jerry about his spouse.

[25:18] Jennifer: Well, actually, you spent more time with them. So you have to make sure that those work relationships really work for you.

[25:25] Jean: I think there's an interesting point you just bring up. Because the sad thing is we'll spend like 33+% of our life in the working place. And so if we don't have human workplaces, that experience is shaping human beings all over the world right now. 

And if it's a toxic environment, they're going to come home and they're going to be toxic to their families. And there's some stat from Gallup that something like, I think I'll get the stat right, 80% of the workforce is unhappy and is actually proactively unhappy in their work. 

And so if you think about it, like 20% of people are in a healthy environment that's shaping who we are as humanity right now. And so culture, as you brought up before, making workplaces human is so important.

[26:06] Jennifer: Yeah. A friend of mine, her boss is leaving. I think she worked for him for 6-7 years, and she's devastated. And she's like, oh, it's like losing a parent. I was like, surely it's not that bad, c’mon I'm sure another parent will come along or adopt you. (chuckles)

You're also the founder of Planetary Guardians. So I'd love to hear the origin story of Planetary Guardians. I mean, we have so many people, a few of them are here today with us at Villars. I don't know if Johan (Rockstrom)'s here, but sometimes he drops in and out. Sylvia Earle's here. Xiye Bastida was here. Not to mention one of my new obsessions with Wade Davis - he's not here, but we wish he would be. 

But yeah, tell us about how you came up with the concept for the Planetary Guardians.

[26:53] Jean: Yeah, so this was actually Johan Rockstrom. I was actually at Davos. I think it was 2010, and he was unveiling his book there. And Sylvia Earle sent me a text message saying, you gotta go listen to this guy. So I remember running to the... it was like seven in the morning across ice to see him. 

And ever since I saw that model of the Planetary Boundaries, of the nine boundaries, it's just such a clear framework of how we can really collaborate and organize as human beings. Because it's an opportunity model, it's a risk model, for the center of our companies, for our nations, because it looks obviously at climate, but then it also looks at land use, biodiversity, novel entities.

So it's extraordinary and this was Johan, Catherine Richardson, Will Stefan and 28 other global scientists came up with this model. So we started talking to Johan back in 2010. We've seen him present this model again and again. And how do we help elevate this in the world? How do we help get people to listen to the science? And so that was the genesis of the idea. 

And then Richard got really even more excited about it when he saw the film Breaking Boundaries that Jochen Seitz and Kate Seitz produced. And so then we started to talk to Johan. 

And before that, we built about 22 collectives. So like when I say built, it was with partners. And so it was co-creation. And we've never done anything by ourselves, which has been beautiful. So like the Elders or the B team, or the Carbon War Room, which merged with RMI and a whole bunch of others. 

But we've seen the power of that collective leadership coming together. And so we thought, wouldn't it be cool to work with Johan to create this Planetary Guardians, whose mission was really to make the Planetary Boundary science a measurement and operating framework for the world. And so that's the genesis of it. 

And so we actually sat with Sylvia (Earle), Xiye (Bastida) and Mary Robinson. So they were kind of three founding members. And we spent four days with them just talking about what could this thing look like? Like, how could it be helpful to the planet and to humanity at this moment in history? So that's where it emerged from.

And then we now have 19, about to have 20 guardians, and they really focus on how do they unveil… We came up with working with GCA and with a bunch of other partners, a planetary health check. So we unveil that once a year. 

And the first one was unveiled in September, which shows obviously that the planet's on red alert right now and we're very near crossing that red line that will put us into a potential catastrophic issue for humanity, life as we know it right now. 

And Jennifer, when I think of how we're approaching the problem of the planet, I feel like it's almost like the planet's having systems failure. It's rushed into the emergency room. There's hundreds of people there that aren't doctors trying to fix it, not working together, sticking band aids, even though it's systems failure on the planet and working in the dark. 

And I feel like this model, Planetary Boundaries, is a framework that can help us coordinate in that operating room, you know, help us help shine a light on what we need to do, how we need to do it. And so I'm super excited to be able to have the honor to work with Johan on this. 

And the Guardians themselves are characters and so excited. And they're cross-generation, they are cross-culture, they're cross-gender. And they're just the most beautiful collective of people that challenge each other, that push each other and they never stop.

Like if you look at Sylvia, who's about to turn 90 in August, or Jane Goodall, who just turned 90, David Suzuki, who's about to turn 90, and then you look at this amazing powerful force like Xiye Bastila is ancient beyond her years.

[30:29] Jennifer: She is very wise beyond 22 years old.

[30:32] Jean: Every time I sit with her, I just come away with my mind blown. She just centers you immediately, and her wisdom comes out just in this beautiful way. She called someone the other day, she said, you flow like the ocean into a room. And I feel like she flows like the planet. And thousands of years of wisdom when she walks into a room. 

So we have these amazing young leaders in this group like her. Ayisha Siddiqa, Farwiza Farhan, Hindou Ibrahim, who's just extraordinary. She's the chair of the organization. And then you have politicians like Mary Robinson and President Santos. And so it's this beautiful blend of science, politics, activists, and they really challenge each other, which has been fantastic to watch.

[31:19] Jennifer: So is there a project that's coming out? Is there going to be a film?

[31:22] Jean: Well, the first project we did was this Planetary Health Check with Johan. So that was just unveiled. And we're going to do that every single year so that we know where we sit in planetary health. 

And then we're going to build that into almost like a NASA control center for the planet so that we know what's happening with our planet across all nine boundaries. So that's something we're very focused on right now, working with Johan on. 

Another thing we're very focused on is we need to change the way governments look at… Because right now sometimes they have an environmental minister or climate minister, but often they don't go beyond that and look at the whole Earth system. 

So one of the things that was Mary Robinson's idea is we're working on getting planetary scientists at high levels within governments. So we're hoping to actually get that launched and into the world this year as well. 

And another thing we're really excited about is I feel like right now I've spent a lot of time with the community that protected the ozone layer. I always say to them, why are we failing right now? 

And they said to me, who would want to be involved with something that sets targets you can't reach, that constantly is focused on trying to boil the ocean? And so we never get anywhere and never celebrate the small wins as you go, so that people feel excited about it. 

And who would want to be part of something that when you talk about it, it's completely negative. Like it's not anything of where that future vision is. And like with the ozone community, they had a very clear vision - we are going to close the hole in the ozone to save humanity. Super clear vision. 

So, David Suzuki, we've been talking a lot with right now around how do we work with indigenous peoples all over the world who have been stewards of the planet and the real guardians of the planet for centuries. How do we work with them? How do we work with young leaders to create a vision that people want to run towards? 

And so that's something that we're working on right now with a bunch of different artists and creative people and David and the Guardians on what does that vision look like going forward. So that's another project that we're currently working on.

[33:21] Jennifer: Oh, that's super interesting. So one of the things that I've been reflecting on since I came back from the Amazon is the intention that I had when I went there to bring back some of the indigenous wisdom. And that's why we spent quite some time within the communities. I mean, not very long, just a week, but it was enough to get a taste of what their way of life is. 

And then what I've been thinking about now is how do we incorporate that into our modern way of life, because in our world, we don't live next to the river, we don't live off of the forest, or we don't know how to live off of the forest anymore. 

Because we can't roll back the clock now. And so it's like, what can we take from their wisdom and incorporate into our modern world? It's really something that I've been thinking about. 

The one thing that I can tell you that's made a difference is I'm almost a vegetarian after a week in the forest (chuckles). Initially, it was not by choice because I would just eat what was available. And then nowadays, since I come back and I go to the supermarket and I see the poultry, the meat section, and it just feels so wrong, actually, because, you know, when you're in the forest, you eat a tiny piece of meat or fish and that's it. 

Just having that much abundance. And I think we're over consuming as well, aren't we? We don't need that much food, but we over-consume and then we end up with all these health issues and we need the pharma industry to rescue us. 

But I've been thinking how do we incorporate that into our way of life, in terms of individual lifestyles, but also in terms of business practices? Because in the end, we talk a lot about ancestral wisdom and indigenous wisdom, but it's so hard now coming back to the modern world. 

I know at an individual level I can be vegan - that's what I could do. I am not quite there yet, getting there, (but) I did kick off my caffeine habit already for six months now. 

What are the concrete actions that we can take on the ground in the modern world, having had those experiences? So I'm still in the process of figuring that out.

[35:31] Jean: Did you find something shifted in you after that week?

[35:54] Jennifer: And so it's interesting. I think definitely something shifted. 

People are like, oh, are you changed now? I said, you know, I don't feel really changed, I feel like I already changed five years ago. I'm now a very different person than I was 5-6 years ago. I feel maybe elevated.

[35:50] Jean: Yeah, that's a beautiful way.

[35:51] Jennifer: Right? So I already shifted already 5-6 years ago, but I do feel elevated. Yeah, so that's how I would describe the experience.

[35:59] Jean: That's a beautiful way to describe it. Now. The trick is how you stay elevated after the experience, back into the craziness of the world.

[36:06] Jennifer: But don't read news, Jean, don't…

[36:10] Jean: I know I'm going to learn that ritual from you.

[36:11] Jennifer: Delete all your apps (chuckles), maybe you can't do that in your job.

[36:18] Jean: I can try a little bit, but I think it's interesting. I've been thinking a lot about paying more attention to everything in life, like being present more, taking practices back into our lives. 

Even, like, there's a little bit of forest every time we eat a leaf. Food is such a connection to nature and I think we've lost that connection. We have no idea where our food comes from that comes to our table. I think that's a really interesting thing that I'm just thinking about is putting more focus and emphasis on understanding and that connection.

And more gratitude. Like, every time I eat a nut or eat a leaf, it's extraordinary how these things grow. And how do we have those moments of gratitude constantly for nature that's really still around us, but in different forms than it would be, perhaps when it's natural in the forest or in a farm or whatever that may be.

[37:07] Jennifer: I totally agree with you on that.

[37:08] Jean: And gratitude's so important, isn't it? 

We stole a ritual, my husband and I, because we're long distance often. And two of our friends, he was sadly passing, and we asked them how they stayed just even living every day with this. And they taught us this ritual about every day - they shared five things they were grateful for from that day. 

We started that ritual because when we were traveling, even if we didn't get to talk, we'd email each other five things. And it was interesting because I'd done gratitude rituals of like one thing or two things. But as soon as you get to five, it's interesting because once you pass three, so actually you really have to…

[37:43] Jennifer: You really have to. Yeah. 

So I do a gratitude journal, not every day, but then at the end of the day, you write like three highlights of your day. And then you write down three things that you learned. So it really changes your mindset. Like, okay, I might have had a bad experience, but what did I learn from that bad experience? And that really kind of shifts your mindset. 

And also the thing about gratitude, a friend of mine, she and her husband, they live together, they don't live apart. They sit down every night and talk about three things that they feel grateful for each other (chuckles)

[38:19] Jean: For each other…

[38:22] Jennifer: I tried to set that practice with my husband. I think we stopped after three days. She actually sits down every night and they say how they're grateful for each other.

[38:34] Jean: That's beautiful, that's beautiful.

[38:35] Jennifer: We're at the Villars Summit 2025. What have been some of your takeaways?

[38:41] Jean: Yeah, I think it's a really special gathering. And I felt the people that come here are obviously passionate about the planet. And what's really interesting is you'll go to a lot of different conferences and they'll be passionate about one part of the planet, like the climate or biodiversity or agriculture. But here you have people that have a sense of a whole planet, which is a very unique thing to have in one place. 

And so I'm really grateful for them for bringing that together, because I feel like that's a major shift we need to have in the world right now. And I think the other thing is, I feel like people have been really honest in many of the discussions around what's working and what's not, more than I've ever heard before in a place. And so that's been really refreshing.

And I think the other thing that I take away is that people realize now, particularly here at Villars, that we need to collaborate and partner in a radically different way than we ever have in the past. So that feels really beautiful. 

You feel like it's a warm embrace and that people are willing to put aside egos, put aside their own projects, and embrace each other and realize that we have to work together in a way that, again, is hard sometimes, especially when everyone in this building is so passionate about this work. That's hard sometimes to step back.

You know, I catch myself sometimes because I'm so passionate about the Planetary Boundaries and the Planetary Guardians that I have to sometimes step back and say, okay, you know, just listen and learn where this other person's coming from. So I found that those three things have been really unique and beautiful and really life giving to me for the last couple days.

[40:14] Jennifer: Beautiful. So one thing that you talked about, which is collaborating and working together and partnering in a radical way, you have a lot of experience building partnerships and scaling partnerships in terms of working, facing kind of the existential threats now for our species. 

Where do you see that? Because we also live in a very divided world today. Maybe it's a little bit milder in Europe than it is in North America. How do we build this effective collaboration going forward?

[40:48] Jean: Yeah, super important question. And, you know, I'll start just with a story. I had the good fortune to interview Cornel West, who, as you know, is far-left Social Democrat, and Robert George, who's a far-right Christian Thinker, and they are really close friends. 

And I sat there and they told me a story about how often they'll be talking to each other and they become silent and people think they're fighting. And what they're actually doing is they are absorbing what the other person said, even though they disagree with it, that they respect the other person so much, even though they have radically different views.

That they're holding that space to try to reflect themselves on, maybe something they should learn from that other person that they respect so much. And they call it how you can disagree without being disagreeable and holding that space. And I think that phrase is really relevant. 

But I'll never forget, at the end of that interview, they looked at me and they said, go out and find a friend that unsettles you. And that's what I'm thinking about a lot right now, is how we cross divides with people that maybe are unsettling to us, but that we need to work with if we're going to keep momentum up. 

And I think a lot of it is language. I've been sitting in Utah actually, with a lot of farmers and a lot of landowners. When I present to them the Planetary Boundary science, they come to me after, and they are excited about it because they feel like framing it as the planet and not again, just as climate, which can be very polarizing sometimes to them because we've turned it into a lightning rod almost. 

But when you say planet, they say, I get that, and I want to embrace it. And they feel like the original stewards of the planet because they're the farmers. So I feel like our language, we can change, that will help bridge those divides. 

One thing is bridging divides, finding people that unsettle you, but the other thing is also surrounding yourself with people that will help you keep your resilience and having a circle of friends around you that you can run with, and those deep connections that help you keep strong and healthy and keep on going. 

So I'd say probably those two things I think are really important in the world right now.

[42:56] Jennifer: And last question, I want to leave you with for reasons for hope and the messages to the next generation, because we have a few of them right here with us as Vilar Fellows.

[43:07] Jean: Yeah. When you said reason for hope, the immediate thing that came to mind was Xiye Bastida. You know, whenever I'm with her for even a second, I leave really filled with hope and positive energy. And I feel like the same thing with Sylvia Earle in Jane Goodall or Mary Robinson. 

So I think what's giving me hope are those people that have such a deep passion in their souls and their hearts for people and for the planet, and they'll never give up. They'll never, ever give up in the face of anything. And there's a lot of people like that in the world. And if we can just mobilize and come together with them and with others, then we'll become unstoppable as humanity.

Because no matter what side of the political aisle you are on, again, I go back to that thing about when I moved in those different cultures, we all want the same thing. And I really believe in my heart that if we can bring ourselves back to that safe operating zone, then we will have a world that's unimaginable to us right now, but that's way better than the one we're currently headed towards right now. 

So that gives me hope, is people that never lose that faith, no matter what they go through. Like Archbishop Tutu, unimaginable what he went through in life, and he never lost hope. He used to call himself a prisoner of hope.

And I'll never forget him one time sitting me down and sitting a group of us down and saying, joy is a discipline. He said, don't forget how important joy is, to oil constantly any friction that you have to make sure that you keep on moving forward and that you need to laugh and have joy when you're doing this work, or else you'll burn out. 

So every time I'm in a room, I think of that phrase about how do we bring those moments of joy and levity and love and light into a place as well. And I've gone totally off-piste. And so I don't know if I've even answered your question.

[44:51] Jennifer: I don’t even remember my question now. (chuckles) Great, thank you. 

Well, I think of them as different vibrations. So like love and joy and gratitude, they're at the high vibration. And then you have fear, anxiety, jealousy and hate and anger - those are low vibrations. Like gravity, it’s really easy to go down. It's much harder to pull yourself up. 

You know, you just get pulled by all the negative news, you get pulled by all the social media and stuff like that. And it's very easy for us to be triggered these days, to react right away versus  take a step back and say, you know what? I'll just let it sit and not do anything. But I think this is actually a spiritual practice to not to react.

And the great Desmond Tutu has said that it's a practice, it’s really hard. You have to work on it to keep in that vibration because it's so easy to just fall down.

[45:47] Jean: Yeah. And a dear friend of mine, Andrea Baron, once said, you know, stay on your side of the sidewalk - don't let people pull you off into their side of the sidewalk. And I feel like that's why that circle of friends around you right now in your life is so important, because they're the ones that will lift you up. 

And sometimes one of you is going to be down and the others will then bring you back up again. So I think investing in those deep connections around you is probably more important than ever before.

[46:11] Jennifer: Right. Well, thank you, Jean. Thank you for spending the time with us today and really loved your journey, all your stories, the stories about Richard Branson, Mary Robbins, Desmond Tutu, Ben and Jerry, and yourself. Thank you so much.

[46:27] Jean: Thank you, Jennifer. Thanks for doing this incredible podcast.

[26:21 Jennifer: If this podcast has been beneficial or valuable to you, feel free to become a patron and support us on Patreon.com, that is P-A-T-R-E-O-N.com/TheFounderSpirit. 

As always, you can find us on Apple, Amazon and Spotify, as well as social media and our website at TheFounderSpirit.com. 

The Founder Spirit podcast is a partner of the Villars Institute, a nonprofit foundation focused on accelerating the transition to a net-zero (and nature-positive) economy and restoring planetary health. 

[47:09] END OF AUDIO