‍[00:02] Jennifer Wu: Hi everyone, thanks for listening to The Founder Spirit podcast. I'm your host, Jennifer Wu. In this podcast series, I interview exceptional individuals from all over the world with the founder spirit, ranging from social entrepreneurs, tech founders, to philanthropists, elite athletes, and more. Together, we'll uncover not only how they managed to succeed in facing multiple challenges, but also who they are as people and their human story. 

The following episode was recorded during the 2024 conference by the Building Bridges Foundation, a Swiss nonprofit committed to driving sustainable finance solutions and promoting investments that create a positive environmental and social impact. 

“We are going to take the government to court, we are going to say that this is just not enough.”

“The financial sector, the CO2 emissions that they are responsible for are staggering. If they just would get it, the leverage they had, they would suddenly be on the right side of history.“

“Planets are hard to come by, so take care of the one we’ve got.”

Joining us today is Elisabeth Stern, a cultural anthropologist, a peace and environmental activist, and a board member of Senior Women for Climate Protection Switzerland. In April 2024, the association won a landmark judgment in the European Court for Human Rights against its country for its adequate climate policy. 

Just how did a group of Senior Swiss Women persevere through an eight-year legal battle and ultimately secure a historic victory against their own government? Well, let’s talk to her & find out.

Welcome, Elisabeth, welcome to the Founder Spirit Podcast. I'm so happy that you could join us today, and we're recording live from Building Bridges 2024. 

[02:00] Elisabeth Stern : Hello, thank you for having me. 

[02:03] Jennifer: Elisabeth, I was wondering, growing up in Switzerland, what were some of the major influences on your life? 

[02:10] Elisabeth: What were the major influences? Oh, when you look back on your life, then it always seems pretty clear what they were at the moment - you were just living your ordinary life.

My biggest influences were my grandfather, to start with. He was just an extraordinary person, he was considered the most intelligent man between the two lakes where I grew up. And he was a farmer, and I grew up on his farm together with my siblings. So he had a great impact. 

And then later on in my life, different women. And it's very interesting that a bit later in my life, when I was about 45, it was actually Mary Robinson, who was the President of Ireland, with whom I was on this panel just a few hours ago. 

Yes and then in general, what was then called, or is still called the Human Potential Movement, that you look forward (to) what could be done, not backwards, whether, I don't know, your mom weaned you too early or something like that, which is also important to look back, by the way. But it was so much the focus on the future abilities that you could still gain or train. So that Human Potential Movement very very strongly. 

And then even later on, it was an old man actually in Africa who pointed out to me the empty water dam. And he said, the weather has changed. And just that sentence, the weather has changed, ticked on something in me. And it was very clear then that I find my space within the environmental movement and be active there. 

[03:59] Jennifer: It's interesting sometimes how life comes around full circle. As you mentioned that you were inspired by Mary Robinson, and earlier today you were on a panel with her. We're going to come back to that a little bit later. 

But speaking of the man who made you become aware (of) the climate crisis, I understand, as mentioned, you are a culture anthropologist by training, which is the study of human society and culture and its development. I always find it fascinating. I recently read the book The Wayfinders by Wade Davis, which made a real impact on my life. 

I was wondering, if you can tell us what is the intersectionality of your work as anthropologist and what is happening with the environmental movement?

[04:45] Elisabeth: Yes, as a cultural anthropologist, it's of course a lens you have without being conscious of what that is. 

When the European Convention for Human Rights was written, it was was very clear what was under human rights was you have the right to free speech and no torture and things like that. But at the same time, those people who set up the convention, they were far-sighted enough to include any possible upcoming societal changes. And so it was formulated in that way. 

And that really fascinated me that people after the Second World War were actually thinking that far, not just about the horrors of the Second World War, that really needs to be included in the convention, but even further along the line, because at the time when the convention was written, nobody thought about climate change, of course not. 

And there was a human right connected with this very strong and severe weather conditions due to climate change. And that foresight and a certain way of thinking can do, in the end, a document that actually gets accepted and taken as a part of, in our case, of our democratic system. 

[06:13] Jennifer: Interesting. You were also a senior lecturer at University of Zurich and at University of St. Gallen, and you taught on a range of topics on sustainable development and intercultural competence.

The association of Senior Women for Climate Protection Switzerland was founded in 2016, so just eight years ago. And I was wondering if you can tell us how you initially got involved with this group of incredible women?

[06:45] Elisabeth: First of all, I was not there from the very beginning. I came in on the game somewhat later and that was actually a funny way. 

I was at a very interesting talk at the University of Zurich and there was another woman there whom I didn't really know and she was a KlimaSeniorin already. And I asked two questions that evening and then she came up to me at the end and she said, wouldn't you like to join the KlimaSeniorinnen cause I think you can argue your points well. That was a funny way of saying it. 

But anyway, then KlimaSeniorinnen and I heard that the same evening I looked at the website and I met her again. And then eventually, within half a year, it was very clear I would join the KlimaSeniorinnen because these are just great senior women. 

They are not women that now just barely move out of the rocking chair and now they think, oh, it's too hot. No, they were activists all their lives. So I felt so much on eye level with them, and I still do. 

[07:49] Jennifer: And this association, I understand, has 2,500 women in Switzerland, is that correct? 

[07:55] Elisabeth: Well, you can add some more. 

[07:58] Jennifer: Maybe it's growing since…

[07:59] Elisabeth: It is growing, we are around, I think it’s at 3,200 now. And it's, of course, the ruling that was spoken in April that just gave us a big increase in membership. And we have lots of supporters, I mean, specifically our husbands, they better be a supporter. And then a few others. So all in all, they are 5,000.

But you know, members are 3,200. And the other ones are the supporters, men and women who are not of retirement age yet, and men. 

[08:38] Jennifer: That's nice. Yeah. So my husband supports me as well in my work. 

[08:41] Elisabeth: Wonderful, that's so nice to have that. 

[08:44] Jennifer: So eight years ago, the association filed a lawsuit against the Swiss government, accusing it for breaching their human rights for its inadequate climate policy. And I wanted to understand, what motivated the association to first launch the lawsuit?

[09:02] Elisabeth: Well, the association was actually founded on that motivation. It was just very clear. These women that got together, as I mentioned just before in a kitchen in Zurich, there was already one case out, and that was the one in Holland that everybody refers to, agenda. 

They were the first coming out of the civil society and they took their government to court for an inadequate climate policy, and they won the case. And out of that, a young man from Greenpeace actually had the idea, how could we do that? 

So a young lawyer was asked, she happens to be our lead lawyer, but she was then only 34 when she got the task of figuring out how (we would) have to go about to file a lawsuit in Switzerland.

And then it was very clear it would be older women who are affected by climate change. And you can only take your government to court if you are personally affected. And so that was then the line of argument at the beginning. 

[10:08] Jennifer: So another question I had is, why use the lawsuit as a means of environmental activism? Why not other means? You know, you have the young kids marching on the street. So very curious to…

[10:23] Elisabeth: Yes. So that's what they do now, the young people, they march on the street. 

That lawsuit was just a bit before, and it came out of frustration with our government because we did sign the Paris agreement and then it said 1.5 (degree) is the limit of global warming. 

And we had the feeling that the track that Switzerland is on is certainly not on that, it’s actually on a track of almost 3 degrees. And so it came out of that frustration which was there even before the association was founded. 

Then this association with the clear signal we are going to take the government to court. We are going to say that this is just not enough. I mean, this is a joke. On the basis of what is this climate policy? Certainly not on science.  

So there was a strong frustration, then this young man from Greenpeace, just in the right moment, showing up. I don't know whether it was just a group of rebellious grandparents and sort of a shift in society towards this whole climate crisis. I mean before, we were still talking about the environment, now suddenly it was the climate, the climate, and the climate. 

And the young ones. Yes, if you mentioned the young ones, yes, of course, it was a great gain that they went to the streets, they had our support. I mentioned earlier, we were asked, but I was asked several times, would you glue yourself to the ground? And I would always answer, yes, I would, if I would know how to stand up after. 

So, I mean, but it's very clear where the heart would be. 

[12:13] Jennifer: Yeah, I love that. I love that. And then can you specifically talk about the angle for senior women in this and the health impact that climate change has? 

[12:21] Elisabeth: Yes. So there were only a few studies in 2016 showing that senior women actually are the segment of the population that suffers the most during prolonged heat waves. And we know that these prolonged heat waves are due to climate change. 

So there was some scientific evidence for this, not as much as now. When the moment went to Strasbourg to the European Court of Human Rights, that line of argument was much stronger because there was, in the meantime, more research being done on it. 

But at the beginning it was… For us, it was still very clear. But for the judges, it's evidently not, because we were turned down all three times within Switzerland. What was the question? 

[13:09] Jennifer: No, it was about the angle of the senior women and the health impact on them. 

[13:14] Elisabeth: So it's that health impact which we had, of course, to scientifically proved, you always need evidence. And then it was clear, yes, we are the most affected. And during those prolonged heat waves, women actually die prematurely. 

And just to give one example, in 2003, which (was) quite a while ago. That was an extremely hot summer and there were 70,000 people who died all over Europe and 2/3 of them were older women. And I mean not 100 years old, but already after the age of 72, 73, 74. 

So the premature deaths during those heat waves are more on the side of older women.

[14:07 Jennifer: You know, it's interesting now because we're in the middle of December and it's 8 degrees outside. 

I've been living now in Switzerland for over 20 years and I shudder to think what the weather would be like next summer because the summers are getting hotter. We don't have air conditioning at the residential homes. 

So it's certainly becoming much more challenging. I remember coming here over 20 years ago, the summers were very mild, except for the summer of 2003 that I remember specifically. 

[14:38] Elisabeth: Yes, and we did learn a lot from that 2003. And you know, that's why now, I mean, we had what in ‘15, in ‘18, in ‘20, in ‘22, we had these hot summers. But comparably there were much less women evidently who died because we already knew better how to adjust to the heat, like not go out in the middle of the day. 

That's then where the human rights come in, okay, but at least you survive if you stay home, and you know now that you should drink and don't go out, close the shutters so that the glass doesn't warm up and transport the heat inside. So those measures, we are better at now. 

And that's exactly where the state has the responsibility. I mean they cannot do away with climate change, but they can definitely consciously improve the measures that need to be taken or the alerts that are passed out like inner cities. 

We all know that if you have no choice, just get terribly warm and that. Yeah, make sure whenever there is something new being built, trees are considered and planted and so on. 

[15:58] Jennifer: It's been an eight year battle and it's been an uphill battle. Can you tell us some of the challenges that you faced during that period? 

[16:09] Elisabeth: Yeah, that is a long time. So what were the challenges? 

I think the image of an older person right at the beginning, when they started, was not too bad. And then they became somewhat of a serious group, then the narrative was really like, well, these old women, what do they want anyway?

And they are the boomers, so they wrecked the whole thing anyway. Do they do this now out of a bad conscience and so on? Which why not? Even if that were true, I mean, nature doesn't care whether I do it out of whatever reason, as long as I do it. So that was sort of a challenge, that narrative. And then we did overcome it. 

And then the challenge was every time to decide, do we go on to the next step after we were dismissed, do we go to the next court? Yes, we do. We do the next. Oh God, we were dismissed again for such weird reasons. And then to decide, yes, we march on. And we do go to Strasbourg, to the European Court (for) Human Rights. 

And then of course, the whole thing resurrected itself again a bit. What? This bunch of old women again, when are they finally quiet? And anyway, you know, some guy said in the parliament, this is after the ruling - look at those women, they actually look pretty healthy to me, and they complain about it being too hot. And then he started laughing. 

So those were challenges on that side, but were they challenges? We didn't take them too seriously, actually. It was also, well, these boys, they just complain now. I couldn't take it quite seriously. Actually, to one or two of them. I said, you know, if your mother would listen to the way you talked about us, your mothers, I'm sure, would feel ashamed. And that’s… I still feel that way. (chuckles)

[18:05] Jennifer: So I'm also curious. It's an eight year legal battle. Who provides the funding for you guys during this time? It's strenuous. You were like you said, you were dismissed three times in the Swiss courts and then you went up to the European Court for Human Rights. So who funded this whole effort? 

[18:21] Elisabeth: It's an expensive affair. And that's where that is not a democratic procedure. 

Okay, so the whole thing over the eight years cost about a million, and 2/3 came from Greenpeace and 1/3 we raised. So very clear from the beginning, we had the support of Greenpeace, they picked up the big bills. And also in terms of communication, they were just a great help to us. 

[18:41] Jennifer: So how was fundraising for you, Elisabeth? 

[18:51] Elisabeth: Fundraising was… It’s just until recently that I talked with friends over a dinner and I said, we want to write a book about our own story. And we actually started, but it will cost something. 

The person that is writing that book on the whole history in German, she, it’s a she, you know, she is now free. She is a journalist, actually employed. And she has now reduced to 40%, so 60% she works for us. She said, I can carry some of the cost, but not all. 

Anyway, and I discovered for the first time that out of personal relationship, and you talk about this book and then three together said, oh, we gave the first 10,000. 

So that was the only fundraising experience I have up to now, which was so easy. And otherwise it was whenever we sent out a newsletter, we put in a brief that we actually could use a donation. And then that's how the money came in. 

[20:02] Jennifer: That's good to hear. And you had mentioned some of the initial criticisms that you had faced, but much, I would say, to the surprise and joy of many young and old around the world, different professions, the European Court of Human Rights delivered a judgment in your favor earlier this year declaring that climate protection is a human right. 

Can you tell us, were you expecting that victory? Maybe you can say how you felt. 

[20:34] Elisabeth: Maybe I can say the second point also, which I find very important. Yes. Climate protection is a human right, that's established. It's also established that the state has a responsibility to protect the life of its citizens. Okay, that's very important. So how did we feel? 

[20:57] Jennifer: Yeah. Were you surprised that you won? 

[20:59 Elisabeth: Well, some of us said they were surprised. I was not, because I mean, we went to Strasbourg with that whole idea of winning. You don't go with the sense of not winning, right? And then I thought, why are they surprised? 

But then I was surprised to not notice that the female President actually already spoke in our favor. And I still was of the opinion, she was reading what we were asking for. But that point had passed, she was actually reading what the court decided and that was just incredible. 

So that was wonderful to be in that room…

[21:43] Jennifer: So there was one dissenting judge, I think one out of the 17 judges. 

[21:47] Elisabeth: Yes. And you know what? On the same time, I had four interviews with different BBC. I shouldn't say the name, I guess because two of them said, you know, that judge had to say no, he wouldn't have dared to come home. (chuckles)

Yes, yes, so yes, so there was one. That's okay, all the other ones were for us. 

[22:12] Jennifer: So based on Article 2 and Article 8 of the Human Rights Act, your judgment was delivered, your victory was declared. What do you think is the significance of your victory for the younger generations? 

[22:26] Elisabeth: Okay, so one of them is very certainly stick with it, stay with it. Excuse me, whatever your issue is, senior women, demographically, are the most unlikely to be the source of such a historic judgment. They can take as a “you don't have to be mainstream”, so the young ones can take that. 

We really had to be very patient - and I don't know whether that would be a quality I would ask for the young. On the contrary, maybe they should be even more pushy. But important is that they definitely stay together in a group because that's what carries you over frustration or when you're so disappointed, you want to give up altogether. 

And then you go, you lick your wounds for a while, but then you go back to the group and you see that everybody here is now suffering. And through that, we support each other. So I was actually telling that to young people. And then after three days, after licking your wounds, you stand up again and you continue. 

But the big difference is because we are old, usually we live in the same place. We don't have to go through university and then we have to write a paper and now we go to the next city for the next study. So the youth climate activist groups, they are much more mobile than we are. And I was recently at one of the universities in Zurich, the ETH, there was a group of students, they wanted to just sort of learn a bit. 

And that was one of the things I really pointed out. When you move on to the next university, don't just leave, but make sure there is somebody that you may be personally recruited who takes over what your role was, your niche was, so that there is some continuity. 

And I think that's also a big reason why we won the case, because we had the same lead lawyer from the very beginning. 

[24:38] Jennifer: And she was young.

[28:30] Elisabeth: And she was only 34 when she took on the case, she's now 42. And she really fought her line of argument from beginning to end. She's a very quiet person, doesn't like to be in the limelight, but she's a genius. 

And that continuity, plus the continuous support, financial support from Greenpeace. 

[25:03] Jennifer: Actually this works really well because you're going to do a panel on intergenerational collaboration later that evening. So I hope that message of unity and succession gets…  that continuity. 

[25:18] Elisabeth: Yeah, that continuity, I think that is. 

I mean, in our case, and that's my analysis, but I think that really made the difference because I know from our lawyer, her first name is Cordelia, how she had to fight her arguments through, specifically when more lawyers came into the game. And she really had to stand her ground on her argument. 

[25:42] Jennifer: And are you looking to collaborate more with youth now? 

[25:46] Elisabeth: Well, we do collaborate. I mean, just a few weeks ago, we had a real great workshop, all of us together. What can we get learn from you? What can they learn from us? 

That was very inspiring. So in that sense, we go to the demonstrations. But if you say, do you collaborate? We don't have a joint project in that sense. But they, not just respect us, they actually, I would say, almost admire us. They are so happy. 

I mean, like at the ETH where I recently was, there are young people, students, who come up and say, couldn't you convince my grandmother to be a KlimaSeniorin, I would set up a meeting between the two. I mean, that's nice. You know, that expresses a lot of trust. So that mutual trust is very definitely there. And when they have a campaign, they ask us and we support wherever we can. 

But of course, we are not that mobile physically that we can go on 2-3 hours demonstrations. After about 45 minutes. I'm glad if I can just sit down somewhere. And certainly emotionally and also around the world, we get quite a few… Or I did personally, I got requests from South Korea, from Seoul, by young people who were taking their country to court and said, oh, would you please send us an inspirational video? Because we have a press conference or they even did it before they had their first day of trial. 

And those things we do, yes. And we supported the Portuguese also. Well, that it was more also on the level of the lawyers, but then also emotionally sur place when it happened. 

[27:46] Jennifer: Yeah. So you're talking about a group of Portuguese youth that were in court with you on the same day, but their case was dismissed. 

[27:54] Elisabeth: Yes, yes. And they were so unhappy, some of them cried so hard. 

And here we were trying to not show, or I was trying to not show my joy too much. But then just the grandeur they had to come up to us and say, crying, even you won, but also for us. I mean, in the midst of their disappointment, they could say such a generous empathic sentence. I was doubly impressed by them. 

[28:25] Jennifer: So victory for one is victory for all. 

[28:28] Elisabeth: Yeah, in that sense, yeah. But to be able to say that when you were the one who lost, I think that's the grandeur. 

[28:37] Jennifer: And now what happens after the judgment? Do you think that the Swiss government is doing enough? What is the action on the ground? 

[28:47] Elisabeth: What's the action on the ground? The Swiss government is not doing anything. 

It had to report back to the Committee of Ministers of the Council of Europe within six months. And so this was around 9th of October. And they did react, just stating that they have fulfilled everything already. So they are not saying we are not honoring that ruling, but they say we have fulfilled it already. 

Because after the ruling was, after it was decided, we had two big votings in Switzerland, they both had to do with the environment and with alternative energy and they were both accepted. 

And so the Swiss government says, although the Swiss government and specifically the right-wing party had fought those two initiatives, now they use them to say, because we have these two accepted initiatives by the public, we have fulfilled the judgment, the ruling already. 

And we know that it's just not true. There's still no science-based carbon budget and that's the main thing that's missing. 

[30:01] Jennifer: So besides the carbon budget, what more do you hope to see the government do? 

[30:07] Elisabeth: Well, once they have the carbon budget, then we can start working. But as long as we don't know how much CO2 is still left for us to mess around with and we know that we have used it up already, actually, what would be our part of the cake? 

But once we would have that as a basis, then we could say, look, we really have to not just take off the brakes, but to go into gear real fast and go on the gas because of this and that and the other.

Because the CO2 emissions per person per year of a Swiss is between 13 and 14 tons per year. And now, you know, so many people point to China, China has 5 tons per head per year. Okay, we have 13 to 14 - we are one of the highest. I think Singapore is higher, but we are definitely one of the highest within Europe, if not the highest. 

And this doesn't even include the financial sector. 

[31:11] Jennifer: So that's great that we're now talking about (the) financial sector because that's what we're doing here, building bridges, aligning finance with sustainable development, sustainable future. 

And yesterday I think you said, oh, I don't have a finance background, which is great because you can bring a different angle into this dialog. So as a non-finance person, what are you seeing and what would you like to see happen in this sector? 

[31:38] Elisabeth: What I would like in this sector to happen is that they just go into gear much faster, just like the government has (to). But also the financial sector, because the CO2 emissions that they are responsible for are staggering. 

Because all what they finance, they still finance fossil fuel projects. Somebody, for God's sake, gives them a pill where they understand the leverage they have. I mean that's the biggest leverage we have. 

If the financial sector would turn away from financing anything that close to fossil fuel… Like a 15 year old just told me recently, my godchild, she said, why don't they leave oil and gas just in the ground? Yeah, that's a good point. 

Okay, so the financial sector, if they just would get it, the leverage they had, I mean, wouldn't that be great? They would suddenly be on the right side of history. That's what I would like to have overnight or to give them a pill or something. 

Because what they are telling us today I heard 40 years ago, because that's the first time I got into this whole field of the financial sector. Yeah, from pension funds we still hear, you know, it's time, we cannot do it, it’s complex. 

It's like the answers I got to my question yesterday, to which you referred now. Very technical, correct answers, but for God's sakes, just put a little bit of vision in it, a little bit of courage, in the sense of healing the planet and not destroying it any further. 

[33:21] Jennifer: I think there's also maybe because you're anthropologists, you understand more about the connection between nature, ecosystems…

[33:29] Elisabeth: and systemic interconnectedness, perhaps, perhaps.

[33:35] Jennifer: I do think so. And we certainly need more inspiration and more imagination to make it happen. 

[33:40] Elisabeth: Imagination, that's the word I was looking for yesterday didn't come to me yeah, imagination. 

[33:45] Jennifer: And Elisabeth, what is next for you besides the book that's coming? 

[33:52] Elisabeth: Fundraising, fundraising… 

No, it is still necessary that we are out there talking to people. As long as this ruling is not implemented, we need to be out on the street and talk, where we have an impact. 

So next for me is, yes, to get the book out because people like our story. I noticed this here, so many people talk to us. So we are sort of like the heroines simply because we are the KlimaSeniorin. No, it's just what we won is of high interest to people. 

So we definitely have to write a book as a good story. Not with figures and charts and God knows what, but a good story. Well, I will mention that tonight, I hope I get this right, yes. 

[34:44] Jennifer: And this podcast can be part of your story as well. 

[34:47] Elisabeth: Yeah, that's a good point, it can be part of the story. And to just watch our parliamentarians and make sure we know every step of what they are planning against the judgment, against the ruling. 

And we do officially, publicly, a so-called submission to the Committee of Ministers. And that's a so-called Rule 9 Submission. And that's interesting what that means. Well, it's interesting to me. 

You have, on one side, you have all what the government stipulated that they did and here on the other side you have the ruling of what they should do and then you compare the two, and then you see where all the holes are. 

[35:35] Jennifer: Where the gaps are. 

[35:36] Elisabeth: Where the gaps are, that's the word.  

[35:39] Jennifer: So in talking to you, it reminds me of a conversation. I had a very brief exchange earlier this year with Jane Goodall and she really inspired me. 

[35:48] Elisabeth: She is wonderful, I would love to meet her. 

[35:53] Jennifer: She is wonderful. I was crying when I met her actually. 

And I asked her what she had learned about humanity after observing chimpanzees for over six decades. And she said she understood that even though that humans are more intelligent than the chimps, we're actually more stupid in a way because we're the only species that's destroying our environment. 

So she talked about the disconnection between our hearts and our minds. And so we have to somehow bring the heart and the mind into harmony, can we really reach the true human potential. It goes back to your… back to your Human Potential Movement. 

And, Elisabeth, I was wondering if you can talk also a little bit about what you hope to accomplish at Building Bridges?

[36:40] Elisabeth: What I hope to accomplish, and certainly by tonight, is like every person in the room understands... And this is a saying we had, I think, decades ago on some of the banners - “planets are hard to come by, so take care of the one we’ve got.” If that sort of gets in the heart, the mind, yes. but also in the heart, I think. 

And specifically all those financial people, if they truly understand what they do with their money, how they wreck this planet. So remember, planets are hard to come by.  

[37:21] Jennifer: Well, with that, one last question. What is one word that summarizes your journey? 

[37:28] Elisabeth: Oh, that would be hard. One of them is certainly change, then I'm very attracted by vision, by something visionary, something that's beyond the immediate. I wouldn't know how to put that in one word, but maybe a fascination for what is beyond the now. What is possible…What is possible. 

That's also what I like about that word hope, because it is something in the future. It is that you can project yourself into a future world, and in there, you still see a contribution. And I don't mean just stupid hope, of course not, not the hope that I know going to win a million in a lotto next week, you know, but hope… 

And for instance, I find pessimism, defeatism, I find boring. I wouldn't want to live a life like (that). I consciously chose something else, and that is possibility, hope, we could create something else. 

[38:38] Jennifer: Yeah, because the judgment is really for the future generations. 

Your session on “Intergenerational Perspective - Our Duties to the Future”, so that's hope. We have the duty to project hope, and then we have the duty to also work together and collaborate as a human society.

[38:57] Elisabeth: And to ensure that word hope doesn't get to belittled, that's important. 

[39:04] Jennifer: If this podcast has been beneficial or valuable to you, feel free to become a patron and support us on Patreon.com, that is P-A-T-R-E-O-N.com/TheFounderSpirit. 

As always, you can find us on Apple, Amazon and Spotify, as well as social media and our website at TheFounderSpirit.com. 

The Founder Spirit podcast is a partner of the Villars Institute, a nonprofit foundation focused on accelerating the transition to a net-zero economy and restoring planetary health. 

[39:42] END OF AUDIO

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